The Inquisition and Burning of Heretics

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Bl_Pope_Pius_IX said:
Again, even after this notion has been condemned by His Holiness, you continue to believe it. Why is this? The Church and her morals should be intertiwned with government. The Pope does not answer to princes or kings, or presidents. It is the other way aroiund, completely. That notion is condemned a few times in the Syllabus of Errors, as well. The teaching of the Catholic Church is not hostile to the well- being and interests of society.
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Jesus himself acknowledged a difference between the State and the Church and said, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God, the things that are God’s. " Yes, we are not a sola scripture religion, but nothing in the teachings of the Church should contradict what Jesus said either. While we are called to follow the Church’s rules and laws first, we are also called to obey civil authorities. And no where are we shown Jesus’ words stating that the civil laws should refect the laws of His Church. He plainly called followers to obedience, and they are to willingly follow and obey Him.

The Church, of course, would like for all nations to make their civil laws after the laws of the Church. This is true especially after having so much power in the past. But then again, all religions would like for all nations to incorporate their laws into civil law.

The United States is not a Catholic Country. It is not a Muslim country. It is not Jewish country. It is not a “insert any religion here” country. It is a country that was made to represent and protect the freedom of all of its citizens, including the right to choose and practice their religion freely. And that’s what I favor and will fight for.

In this country, our citizens represent all religions. We have Muslims, Jewish, Lutheran, Baptist, JW, Cathlics, etc. What I believe is that a country should not base it’s civil laws on any ONE religion, such that the rights of people to practice their chosen religion would be infringed on.

Rather, the US should (and does) afford all of its citizens the right to practice their chosen religion. You can’t do that if the Catholic Church’s laws (or any other one religion’s laws) are intertwined with secular laws because they would infridge on the teachings of other religions.

If the US was a Catholic Country, then I probably wouldn’t have a problem with the Church and government being intertwined. Of course, I wouldn’t live there, but that’s not the point. In the meantime, while the Pope does not answer to any country, our country does not answer to any one religous body, including the Catholic Church. And that’s the way I believe it should be. Catholics should answer to the Pope, not people who choose other religions. They will answer to God and God will judge them according to what is in their hearts. That’s not our place. When we judge others, we put ourselves a position only meant for God, and that’s not a place any smart Catholic would want to be. .
Bl_Pope_Pius_IX said:
The Holy See has the Vatican City. The last remnant of the once much larger Papal State of the Patrimony of Saint Peter. The Syllabus of Errors was promulgated at a time called the “Risorgimento”. Albeit, a turbulant time on the Italian Peninsula. It was the Italian unification under the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia to become the Kingdom of Italy. The aformentioned kingdom waged war against the Holy Father, and the Holy Father lashed back. Sadly, in 1870, Rome fell to the Italians, and until 1929, the Pope had no Sovereign State. Upon that, he was a virtual prisoner of the Vatican. Never leaving. Never going abroad.

This changed, however, in 1929. Benito Mussolini and H.H. Pope Pius XI signed the ‘Lateran Treaty’. Which is still in place today and grants the Holy See jurisdiction over the Roman enclave known as ‘Vatican City’.

This is not to say these condemnations are outdated - they aren’t. Some people (Catholics alike) call for the Pope to give up the Vatican City and all temporal power.
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I can understand some people (including Catholics) calling the Pope to give up Vatican City and all temporal power if they are under the mistaken assumption that the Pope in is favor of forced conversions, and forced compliance. People think they are right to want to cause physical and emotional pain on others in an effort to create converts, but they’re not right. They are causing people to look unfavorably on the Church, who wants desperately for people to choose conversion from their hearts. The Church wants people to choose the Church, and choose freely. The Church wants people to accept and submit to the authority of the Church…and to do so freely. But when proponents of forced and coersed “conversions” push their agenda and try to reel people in, people tend to recoil. The harder one tries to push, the harder the other will pull.

Jesus told us how he wanted us to convert the nations. He said specifically how he wanted his Church built. You can’t argue with the words of Jesus himself:
Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.
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You can’t get any clearer than that. Jesus wants people to come to Him on their own. There is no such thing as a forced conversion
 
Bl Pius IX and Rence, you’re both on the right track, but are both missing some important elements.

Let’s begin with conversion. It was never Pope Pius’ intention to force conversion on people. His intent was to protect Catholics from abandoning the faith. He would have been horrified at the idea of forced conversion. When he lived, there were many missions in Africa, the Amazon and many other non-Christian regions of the world. The Church never commanded the missionaries to force Christianity on the indigenous people. This battle had been had when the Europeans arrived in the Americas and they forced the natives to be baptized. The Dominicans and Franciscans vehemently protested, especially when threats of execution were made. The Mendicants thought this was disgusting and beneath them. They refused to do it and took the side of the natives. The Holy See agreed with the Mendicants and the forced conversions were banned. It is clear that Pope Pius IX was not resurrecting them.

He did however impress upon the world that right of the Catholic Church and its place of primacy in the world. This has not changed. This does not mean that we can force others to become Catholic. It does mean that the Catholic Church is the only Church that can authoritatively teach faith and morals. Therefore, the state, whether it is the USA or any other country, has a moral duty to comply with the moral teachings of the Catholic Church and in democratic societies such as our own, Catholic citizens have a moral duty to bring the Catholic conscience to the polls, into laws and into the daily life of the nation.

No, it is not true that the United States has the right to allow immorality or support it, because we are a nation of many people and many faiths. Moral law is moral law and there is no compromising on this. Therefore, Catholics cannot compromise in the name of democracy. Bl. John Paul condemned any Catholic who put democracy before morality. Democracy is a means to morality, not an end in itself.

For those who say that they would not live in the USA if it were Catholic, then it is important for them to question if they are truly Catholic. You cannot serve to masters at one time. This is a very secular mindset. While the Catholic layperson is to live in the secular world, he is not to follow its way of thinking and he is to be pro-active in changing the secular world to bring it into compliance with Catholic moral law, because there is no other moral code that has the fullness of truth.

I strongly suggest reading Archbishop Chaput’s book Render Unto Caesar. He makes the position of the Catholic very clear. The Catholic may never morally justify himself by saying that we live in a pluralistic society. That is not a justification for allowing evil when we live in a democratic society where we can challenge evil and where we can demand that the state represent the welfare of the citizen. This includes his spiritual welfare as well. The state is free to govern, as long as it does so according the parameters of moral law.

When the citizens allow the state to go beyond what is morally permissible, the citizens will have to respond on their judgment day. Ultimately, a state is an abstract. States do not die and face a final judgment, but citizens do.

It was to this concept of state that Pope Pius spoke. He is speaking to the citizen. The Catholic citizen is not free to choose what is outside of Catholicism. Therefore, I cannot go to the polls and vote for legal abortion, same-sex marriages, embryonic stem cell research, or any other issue that is contrary to the moral teachings of the Church. The Church establishes the moral hierarchy, not the individual.

The argument that we vote for the pro-abortion person, because he has a good plan to end poverty does not work. Poverty is not on the same moral rung as abortion. Such a voter is acting contrary to what Pius IX said. He is choosing error and he deserves to be anathema. The person who was born outside of the Catholic Church probably does not understand the whole problem. To him or her it’s probably just a Catholic thing. You cannot force that person. You educate and evangelize this person. The Catholic should know better; therefore, he or she does not get a free pass.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
TrueLight said:
Br,. Jay,

Is it current teaching that it is right and just that “heretics” be burned? I’m not speaking of what happened in the past. I’m asking if the documents support that it is right to do this and if it were legally possible that it should be done?
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TrueLight.

I did some digging for some non anti-catholic information on the Inquisition. Enjoy:

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/holinquisit.htm
churchinhistory.org/pages/spanishinquisition/truth-spanish-inquisition.htm
 
I have read some truly terrible things in this thread. I cannot understand whether some people were joking – if they were, it was in the most appalling taste. Some people sounded as if they were baying for blood and nonetheless calling themselves Catholics. I cannot believe what I have seen.
Thou Shalt Not Kill. Fifth Commandment. No ifs or buts. God’s orders were simple enough for all, even the most simple-minded, to understand.
Mistakes were made by every side, and heretics burned, even by the Catholics - that was done in more primitive, bloodthirsty times. But to howl for more of this burning now? Words fail me. Darwin was right. We really do descend from the apes.
 
The_Centurion said:
I will save you the time Br. TrueLight babies come from storks.😃
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My Jewish mother used to tell us that Gentile babies came from storks and Jewish babies came from angels. I kid you not.

When I was a little Jewish boy, I saw my first Christmas pageant. It confirmed it for me. Jewish babies came from angels, just look at Jesus. :yup:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
My Jewish mother used to tell us that Gentile babies came from storks and Jewish babies came from angels. I kid you not.

When I was a little Jewish boy, I saw my first Christmas pageant. It confirmed it for me. Jewish babies came from angels, just look at Jesus. :yup:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Thanks for the laugh!!! 😃
 
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