The kneeling saga continues

[PaixGioiaAmor]

BY who’s authority, do you command this?!?!

I don’t “COMMAND” anything.

Although I advise against it, you are FREE to get your liturgy information from Adoramus, just as you are free to get legal advice from a panhandler on the street downtown.

 

[Walking_Home]

I don’t “COMMAND” anything.

Although I advise against it, you are FREE to get your liturgy information from Adoramus, just as you are free to get legal advice from a panhandler on the street downtown.

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How about Notatie, and/or vatican documents posted on EWTN by a canon lawyer. Or are this under your heading of panhandlers.

Quote=Brendan
Fine, I read that same Responsum in the copy of Notatie I checked out from the Seminary libary, it is published by the Vatican.

Am we supposed to discount Vatican documents just because Adoramus posts them online?

 

[childofmary1143]

And I am surprised that so many would question the celebrant’s reason for requesting the congregation to stand. You don’t even know that there is a need for education—perhaps you might want to respectfully discuss this, rather than thinking you can instruct the celebrant.

Lux

Any reason why a Priest would request it is irrelevant. Perhaps we would be more obedient to a Priest/Bishop if a Priest/Bishop were to be obedient to what they SWORE to uphold.

 

[RobinTruett]

I heard some one say they like the standing because we are the ressurected poeple. I say we have been redeemed and if we stay faithful till the end then we will be ressurected poeple, but until then those who feel right in standing I’d like to know what happened to Humility, do they really think that they’re holy enough as they are to just stand before the Lord as equals. We could all use a little more practice in humility, in this age of people paying to much attention to the un holy trinity(me, myself,and I)

 

[wannabee]

I heard some one say they like the standing because we are the ressurected poeple. I say we have been redeemed and if we stay faithful till the end then we will be ressurected poeple, but until then those who feel right in standing I’d like to know what happened to Humility, do they really think that they’re holy enough as they are to just stand before the Lord as equals. We could all use a little more practice in humility, in this age of people paying to much attention to the un holy trinity(me, myself,and I)

Sorry - but as an Eastern Catholic I’m taking just a wee bit of an exception to this comment

I’d like to know what happened to Humility, do they really think that they’re holy enough as they are to just stand before the Lord as equals.

We do NOT think we are holy enough - but we are rejoicing in the Resurrection of Our Lord God and Saviour.

Oh yes - we approach Our Lord in all humility while standing before his Icon on the Iconostasis as we confess - now this is really a humbling experience .

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Any reason why a Priest would request it is irrelevant. Perhaps we would be more obedient to a Priest/Bishop if a Priest/Bishop were to be obedient to what they SWORE to uphold.

Perhaps you might want to study the GIRM a little more carefully before you continue with your judgemental ways.

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

(emphesis mine)

Lux

 

[Walking_Home]

Sorry - but as an Eastern Catholic I’m taking just a wee bit of an exception to this comment

We do NOT think we are holy enough - but we are rejoicing in the Resurrection of Our Lord God and Saviour.

Oh yes - we approach Our Lord in all humility while standing before his Icon on the Iconostasis as we confess - now this is really a humbling experience .

---

Just as Eastern Catholics-- Not think of yourselves as holy enough-- I too think in like manner. Now just as the Eastern Catholics expect for us Latins to respect Your traditions and your ways of expressing yourselves–please reciprocate by respecting our traditions and our ways of expressing ourselves.

To us kneeling is a centuries old tradition which reflects a pure sigh of adoration. You may not agree–but please respect who we are as Latin rite Catholics.

 

[Brendan]

Perhaps you might want to study the GIRM a little more carefully before you continue with your judgemental ways.
(emphesis mine)

Lux

I think you should study the GIRM more. Note that it says whent he people are PREVENTED from kneeling.

A priests or bishops instuction is not a prevention. They are still free to kneel.

Not having enough room is a prevention, ill health is a prevention. A request by a priest is NOT a prevention.

 

[Philothea53]

So you are kneeling on SUNDAY???

That’s the day of Resurrection…

It is a day of joy, not repentance!

Orthodox do not kneel on Sundays…

Nor do we prostrations…

But when the Holy Spirit is invoked unto the bread and the wine, many of us bend at the waist and touch the floor, and cross ourselves continually, and touching the floor, during the entire unfolding of this portion of the Liturgy…

I am not all that sure kneeling is appropriate during the Resurrection…

Arsenios

Is kneeling to be considered strictly repentence or isn’t it veneration, adoration, respect? Bending, touching the floor, crossing oneself - not much different, huh?

 

[Brendan]

And I am surprised that so many would question the celebrant’s reason for requesting the congregation to stand. You don’t even know that there is a need for education—perhaps you might want to respectfully discuss this, rather than thinking you can instruct the celebrant.

Lux

I’ll presume ignorance, thank you. Because the other option would be that the cleric in question has full knowledge of the Vatican Responsum and chooses to violate his Vow of Obediece by ignoring it.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I’ll presume ignorance, thank you. Because the other option would be that the cleric in question has full knowledge of the Vatican Responsum and chooses to violate his Vow of Obediece by ignoring it.

You conveniently omitted the rest of my post
GIRM

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

(emphesis mine)

I’ll presume ignorance, thank you.

It is not up to you to correct a priest or Bishop, or decide what is a good reason. You are also told what to do if you determine there is an abuse, and it certainly is not to correct a celebrant.

Lux

 

[Walking_Home]

You conveniently omitted the rest of my post
GIRM

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53
(emphesis mine)

It is not up to you to correct a priest or Bishop, or decide what is a good reason. You are also told what to do if you determine there is an abuse, and it certainly is not to correct a celebrant.

Lux

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Since you keep are falling back on the statement of—“or some other good reason” as your defense for your position—it is really falls on you to follow thru and and come up with a good reason. If you are depending on that statement—be ready to back it up. A follow–up responsed of “it is not up to me to decide on a good reason”—is really no defense.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

But this is my point. The instruction leaves it open, and it is not for a lay person to decide whether or not it is a good reason or to criticize a celebrant.

The instructions to the laity on how to handle a percieved abuse are far more clear.

Lux

 

[Walking_Home]

But this is my point. The instruction leaves it open, and it is not for a lay person to decide whether or not it is a good reason or to criticize a celebrant.

The instructions to the laity on how to handle a percieved abuse are far more clear.

Lux

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Then–I gather that you really have no foot to stand on.

 

[Brendan]

You conveniently omitted the rest of my post
GIRM

(emphesis mine)

It is not up to you to correct a priest or Bishop, or decide what is a good reason. You are also told what to do if you determine there is an abuse, and it certainly is not to correct a celebrant.

Lux

You are forgetting the key word used by Rome “prevented”.

It’s not the bishop’s determination because the bishop can issue no preventions at that time.

And the GIRM only addresses preventions. If the person is in good health, has space, and the ground isn’t covered with broken glass, there are no preventions.

The GIRM does not give the BISHOP the determination, otherwise even the infirm and handicapped would have to stand, or be in disobedience.

The GIRM gives each PERSON the right to determine if they are prevented from kneeling. In this way, a handicapped person would not be disobedient when they are prevented, by their infirmity, from kneeling. Or if the ground was too hard for a person with delicate knees, or if there was insufficent space for a person to kneel.

But a healthy person next to them might find those conditions are not present for them, and thus they are obligated to kneel.

 

[Brendan]

But this is my point. The instruction leaves it open, and it is not for a lay person to decide whether or not it is a good reason or to criticize a celebrant.

The instructions to the laity on how to handle a percieved abuse are far more clear.

Lux

Yes, they are to take this issue, in charity, to the person excercising the abuse, and higher if the abuse is not corrected.