The Last Few Seconds

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Someone help me understand…

Is it true that Catholics believe a person’s salvation comes down to the state of their soul at death? That a person can be fantabulous all their life, and die with some unrepented sin and go to hell? Really? Their life counts for nothing then? Am I wrong on this?
 
One has to be in a state of grace in order to enter heaven.
There is also another saying: As you live, so shall you die.

But there always remains the possibility of final repentance, for God’s mercy is infinite. The obverse of your question would be, what if a person lives an evil life for decades, yet repents at the last minute, as I am sure some have. They will not be denied salvation.
 
Someone help me understand…

Is it true that Catholics believe a person’s salvation comes down to the state of their soul at death? That a person can be fantabulous all their life, and die with some unrepented sin and go to hell? Really? Their life counts for nothing then? Am I wrong on this?
Well think of it the other way around - the Good Thief crucified with Jesus certainly lived a terrible life by his own admission, but repented at his death and was forgiven by Christ and saved.

So why, if someone commits, even at the last minute, a sin ‘unto death’ as John writes in his letters, or the sin against the Holy Ghost which shall not be forgiven, according to Christ himself, should they not be damned?

To think anything else is to buy into the idea of works-based salvation - that somehow we earn or deserve heaven by the good we do during our lives. None of us earn heaven - no way no how - by any amount of our own works, but simply by grace and by faith in Christ. And that can come at the last minute, and can also be lost at the last minute.

Remember the story of the foolish women who didn’t bring enough oil for their lamps and so were refused entry to the wedding? Does it matter whether their oil ran out two minutes before the bridegroom arrived or two days? The point is they weren’t where they were supposed to be when he came. That’s why we are meant to be vigilant both in prayers and good works, and in guarding against sin.
 
Someone help me understand…

Is it true that Catholics believe a person’s salvation comes down to the state of their soul at death? That a person can be fantabulous all their life, and die with some unrepented sin and go to hell? Really? Their life counts for nothing then? Am I wrong on this?
It’s not entirely that simple.

First of all, it’s mortal sin that cuts one off from God – sins of grave matter that are done knowingly and willingly. Dying with only venial sin on the soul does not condemn one to Hell.

Secondly, “fantabulous” is, you must admit, a bit vague. If one leads a life committed to doing God’s will and in communion with His church, one will not likely die in a state of mortal sin.

Third (and this is important), a person who seeks to be with God (note: not the same as “being a good person”) will seek His forgiveness and mercy. A person who does not repent of mortal sin is not seeking that forgiveness and mercy, no matter how “good” a person he or she is. Because God gave us the gift of free will, He does not force anything on us, and therfore will not force His forgiveness on those who do not wish it.

The result is that, upon death, the soul that is not contrite “goes to hell” of its own volition.

A final note: neither the biomechanics of the human body nor the concept of “time” act as limits on God’s mercy; neither do they act as limits on the soul’s contrition. If your soul is contrite, God knows it – even if your brain didn’t have time to formulate the words “I’m sorry, Lord” and send them to your mouth.

I hope this helps!

Peace,
Dante
 
Someone help me understand…

Is it true that Catholics believe a person’s salvation comes down to the state of their soul at death? That a person can be fantabulous all their life, and die with some unrepented sin and go to hell? Really? Their life counts for nothing then? Am I wrong on this?
In addition to the excellent responses you’ve already got, keep in mind that God is the God of all history, including when and how we die.

God wills our salvation and will give us the opportunity to come to him but he won’t do violence to our free will. Since God is merciful, he is not interested in playing a game of “gotcha”.😃 He alone knows our the truest disposition of our hearts in the light of his grace and He will allow that disposition to translate to our eternal lives.
 
In addition to the excellent responses you’ve already got, keep in mind that God is the God of all history, including when and how we die.

God wills our salvation and will give us the opportunity to come to him but he won’t do violence to our free will. Since God is merciful, he is not interested in playing a game of “gotcha”.😃 He alone knows our the truest disposition of our hearts in the light of his grace and He will allow that disposition to translate to our eternal lives.
Nicely put! 👍
 
"But if a wicked man turns away from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

22] None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness which he has done he shall live.
23] Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
24] But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die.
25]
"Yet you say, `The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?

26] When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die for it; for the iniquity which he has committed he shall die.
27] Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is lawful and right, he shall save his life.
28] Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29] Yet the house of Israel says, `The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
30]
"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.

31] Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?
32] For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."
Ezechiel 18:21-32
 
Someone help me understand…

Is it true that Catholics believe a person’s salvation comes down to the state of their soul at death? That a person can be fantabulous all their life, and die with some unrepented sin and go to hell? Really? Their life counts for nothing then? Am I wrong on this?
Well of course. Matthew 10:22 says he who endures to the end shall be saved. So, logically if one doesn’t endure to the end [of their life] in faith and obedience and turns their back on God, then how can God save them if they don’t want to be with Him in heaven?
Romans 3:23 says we all sin, in fact we are born with original sin and the propensity toward sinning (what Catholicism calls concupiscience)

Matthew 25:41-46
“Then He [Jesus] will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

These people in Mt 25 are those who will not enter heaven. Indeed, according to human standards they may have appeared to be “good” people, perhaps they were members of a charitable group or did nice things for the community or were “nice” people, however, to a Holy God who requires faith and obedience, they are wretched sinners.

And in the Bible there are differing degrees of sin, mortal sins and venial sins (1 John 5:16-17). Venial sins wound our relationship with God but don’t do so in a way that breaks the relationship we have with Him. Motal sins more serious sins that break our relationship with Him, e.g., adultery, fornication, murder and a number of others. 1 Cor 6:9-11 mention those who are guilty of commiting mortal sins; hence they will NOT enter the kingdom of heaven. An example of someone being in mortal sin would be if a Christian who is faithful to Christ and to his wife, yet over time gets the idea in his heart that he wants to pursue another woman and decides with his full knowledge that what he is doing is a grave sin against God. He knows its wrong and yet freely has the affair with a woman who is not his wife and this goes on for some time. One night after again commiting adultery with her at her place and with no intention of breaking the affair, he drives back home to be with his wife, yet on his way back he wrecks his car and dies. That man would have died in mortal sin since he would have chosen freely to commit a serious sin, with the knowledge of the gravity of his sin, and with the deliberate consent of his will. Again, God will not save someone who doesn’t want to be with Him. And if we are in serious sin when we die we have by our actions shown God we don’t want to be with Him forever, He simply lets us have what we want, unfortunate as it is.

"So what kind of Sins are Mortal?

In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:
  • Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
  • Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
  • Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner
    This means that mortal sins cannot be done “accidentally.” A person who commits a mortal sin is one who knows that their sin is wrong, but still deliberately commits the sin anyway. This means that mortal sins are “premeditated” by the sinner and thus are truly a rejection of God’s law and love.
    The first condition, that a mortal sin is of grave matter, means that certain premeditated offenses against God are more severe than others. We know that some sins are graver than others (e.g. it is a graver sin to murder someone than to lie to someone). St. John tells us, “If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.” (1 John 5:16-17). Thus St. John distinguishes between mortal and venial sin. Jesus also warns us that “Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned” (John 15:6)."
    saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html
 
Their life counts for nothing then?
One would assume that, because God is just, in the unlikely event that a person who lived an otherwise virtuous life but turned from God on his death bed and committed a single mortal sin and then died unrepentant would suffer less in Hell than a person who committed thousands of mortal sins during his lifetime and died unrepentant.

In the verse below, St. Paul seems to indicate that the glory of the saints in Heaven differ from one to another. It seems reasonable to think that the suffering of the unrepentant sinners in Hell will similarly differ from one to another.

The sun has a splendor of its own, so has the moon, and the stars have theirs. Even among the stars, one differs from another in brightness. So it is with the resurrection of the dead. … (1 Corinthians 15:41-42)
 
One would assume that, because God is just, in the unlikely event that a person who lived an otherwise virtuous life but turned from God on his death bed and committed a single mortal sin and then died unrepentant would suffer less in Hell than a person who committed thousands of mortal sins during his lifetime and died unrepentant.

In the verse below, St. Paul seems to indicate that the glory of the saints in Heaven differ from one to another. It seems reasonable to think that the suffering of the unrepentant sinners in Hell will similarly differ from one to another.
The sun has a splendor of its own, so has the moon, and the stars have theirs. Even among the stars, one differs from another in brightness. So it is with the resurrection of the dead. … (1 Corinthians 15:41-42)
Five years ago I read Dante’s Divine Comedy and in the Inferno, there were different levels of Hell, with the damned souls undergoing different types of torments.
 
Someone help me understand… Is it true that Catholics believe a person’s salvation comes down to the state of their soul at death? That a person can be fantabulous all their life, and die with some unrepented sin and go to hell? Really? Their life counts for nothing then? Am I wrong on this?
The simple answer is no, but, it’s not a simple matter. You need to understand what an “unrepented sin” is. You cannot commit a mortal sin carelessly or without thought and comprehension. The Catechism of the Catholic Church tells you about sin in paragraph 1854 – 1864. There are sins which result in spiritual death (mortal) and sins which do not result in death (venial), refer to Scripture, 1 John chapter 5: 16 -17. To commit a mortal sin the action (or inaction) must meet three conditions; the sin must be a “grave” offense; you must have “full knowledge” ; and you must commit the offense with full and deliberate consent. Mortal sin is a knowing deliberate rejection of the will of God. Getting back to your original question, would a person was “fantabulous all their life” knowingly and willfully totally reject God? Understanding they are accepting eternal damnation by their rejection? If they fully understand the ramifications of their actions, and willfully totally reject God, then yes God will not force thenm to endure eternity with Him.
 
Five years ago I read Dante’s Divine Comedy and in the Inferno, there were different levels of Hell, with the damned souls undergoing different types of torments.
As much as I love the Commedia, let’s not forget to mention that it’s an allegory. Dante also constructs the world so that Hell is in the center of the globe, Purgatory is a mountain directly on the opposite side of the world from Jerusalem, and the earth is the physical center of the universe – all of which were known to be false in Dante’s time.

I’m sure you’re aware of this, Robert; I just don’t want someone who isn’t familiar with the Divine Comedy to mistake it for authoritative teaching.

It is a fabulous work, however, and it’s so insightful that it made me wonder: “Where did Dante get his ideas?”

Peace,
Dante
 
As much as I love the Commedia, let’s not forget to mention that it’s an allegory. Dante also constructs the world so that Hell is in the center of the globe, Purgatory is a mountain directly on the opposite side of the world from Jerusalem, and the earth is the physical center of the universe – all of which were known to be false in Dante’s time.

I’m sure you’re aware of this, Robert; I just don’t want someone who isn’t familiar with the Divine Comedy to mistake it for authoritative teaching.

It is a fabulous work, however, and it’s so insightful that it made me wonder: “Where did Dante get his ideas?”

Peace,
Dante
Agreed, it is an allegory, and I wouldn’t want anyone to think I was quoting a document of the church. Shucks, when I read the book while I was in nursing school, I told one of my classmates I was reading Dante, and they said “who?” 🤷
Heck, even before I read the book, I had heard of him.

But I do like how the “punishment fits the crime” in the Inferno.
 
Someone help me understand…

Is it true that Catholics believe a person’s salvation comes down to the state of their soul at death? That a person can be fantabulous all their life, and die with some unrepented sin and go to hell? Really? Their life counts for nothing then? Am I wrong on this?

As we are at death, so are we in eternity - the ship can be wrecked at the harbour’s mouth, as Dante says in his *Paradiso *; & any one can be damned in his last moments, no matter what his life has been before, whether good or evil.​

Conversely, it is foolish in the extreme to presume on God’s mercy by living a life of sin and promising oneself that one will repent at death - for repentance depends entirely on the grace and mercy of God; it is in no sense a thing owed to us as of right, because we forfeit all claim to God’s mercy each time we sin. If we presume on God’s mercy, it is all too likely our punishment will begin in this world, because one of the most terrible things that can happen is, that God can punish us by leaving us to our sins; He is not obliged to save any of us - but that is a vast subject… God is Love, beyond a doubt; but He is also a very terrible & utterly Righteous Judge. Revelation 6 does not speak of “the wrath of the Lamb” for nothing: “God is not mocked”, as St. Paul reminds us

That’s the thing about forgiveness, as C. S. Lewis points out somewhere: forgiveness implies that there is not a shred of excuse for the thing that is forgiven. So to be forgiven, is a very great thing indeed.

Sorry to be so morbid :o (& one-sided) - someone else will no doubt fill in the less sombre side of the picture. See the previous posts

Hope that helps 🙂
 
As much as I love the Commedia, let’s not forget to mention that it’s an allegory. Dante also constructs the world so that Hell is in the center of the globe, Purgatory is a mountain directly on the opposite side of the world from Jerusalem, and the earth is the physical center of the universe – all of which were known to be false in Dante’s time.

I’m sure you’re aware of this, Robert; I just don’t want someone who isn’t familiar with the Divine Comedy to mistake it for authoritative teaching.

It is a fabulous work, however, and it’s so insightful that it made me wonder: “Where did Dante get his ideas?”

Peace,
Dante

A certain Padre Miguel Asin-Palacios has looked at this question; & apparently Dante owed a good deal not just to the obvious sources, such as the Bible, Cicero, Virgil, etc., but also to Muslim books. Edward Moore, who was a leading English Dantist until his death in 1916, devoted an entire book to tracing his quotations.​

Dorothy Sayers wrote some excellent essays on Dante, which have recently been republished - her notes are outstanding; she really gets to the heart of the text. But you probably know that 🙂 ##
 
Someone help me understand…

Is it true that Catholics believe a person’s salvation comes down to the state of their soul at death? That a person can be fantabulous all their life, and die with some unrepented sin and go to hell? Really? Their life counts for nothing then? Am I wrong on this?
Think about your hypothetical person more closely. He has loved and served God all his life. Then at the end He knowingly and deliberately turns completely away from God (for it is not just any sin that would result in hell, but only mortal sin). Does that sound likely to you? Do people actually behave that way, living for God all their lives, and then denying Him at the very end?

You also need to answer the counter-question to your own. Is there nothing that a person could do on the last day of his life that would result in him going to hell? In the last week? Last month? Last year? At some point, you end up believing in the unbiblical teaching of OSAS (once saved, always saved).
 
Much better. You replies have really helped. I need to somehow copy/paste this thread somewhere for safekeeping.

And to answer the question laid before me by several people. Yes, my hypothetical wonderful Christian who suddenly sinned unto death right before he died was lame example, at best. More realistically, what about this person?

Does well for a long time, and by does well I mean really tried the best to seek and serve God with all their heart and then sort of drifts away. And by drifts away I mean becomes lukewarm and blah, but possibly not committing any mortal sins. And then died.

I realize that question may be just as tricky to answer, as we can not presume to really, REALLY know the state of someone’s soul when they die.

I’m pretty sure there’s a better way to ask this question but it eludes me. But your answers make all kinds of sense.

And yes, actually, after I lay down to sleep (I made this thread just before going to bed) I said to myself “What a minute! I’ve always accepted the possibility of the hideous person who suddenly repents right before he dies being forgive…why not the reverse?” I had no answer for myself.
 
I think I understand your question, exactly how far can we go before it’s “too” far? I also understand you’re asking hypothetically. The problem with the question is, it’s not a question someone who loves God would ask. One who loves God would ask “What else can I do Lord?”, Not , “What little can I do Lord?”
 
W
Remember the story of the foolish women who didn’t bring enough oil for their lamps and so were refused entry to the wedding?
Minor nit, but I think bridegrooms are men 🙂

Jeremy
 

A certain Padre Miguel Asin-Palacios has looked at this question; & apparently Dante owed a good deal not just to the obvious sources, such as the Bible, Cicero, Virgil, etc., but also to Muslim books. Edward Moore, who was a leading English Dantist until his death in 1916, devoted an entire book to tracing his quotations.​

Dorothy Sayers wrote some excellent essays on Dante, which have recently been republished - her notes are outstanding; she really gets to the heart of the text. But you probably know that 🙂 ##
Not to drift too far OT, but I should probably clarify something: I thought long about whether to say that it appeared to me that Dante was inspired by God in writing the Commedia, because that is quite a loaded statement, and I didn’t want to hijack the thread with that discussion. Apparently, the statement I settled on did not hint at my meaning sufficiently…hehe…

EDIT: …and yes, the name “Sayers” rings a bell… 😉
Peace,
Dante
 
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