The Last Supper (and Indulgences)

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Hi all,

This is probably a really obvious question which was covered in my first communion class but I don’t remember :banghead:

How was the Eucharist at the Last Supper able to be the body, blood, soul & divinity of Christ while Christ was still also physically present in human form at the table? Is it just some form of ineffable mystery deal to do with God not being tied to chronological time so the Last Supper was still a re-presentation of Calvary although pre-dating it? Or is there some other explanation?
While I’m here, on a completely separate note and not really linked to Sacred Scripture directly, I was wondering about indulgences… specifically transfering them to the holy souls in purgatory:
  1. if I gain a plenary indulgence (and I know it’s hard to be sure 😊), does this mean that one person in purgatory has their temporal punishment completely remitted and ascends to Heaven, or do many people each get a part share in the merits, or do we not know?
  2. Similarly, is it possible to designate specific people/groups of people whom you wish the indulgence to be transfered to, or do we just leave it to God to decide? So can I, for example, say “for any members of the Dominican order or any people in my own family”?
Sorry if these questions sound completely stupid, but I am curious to know the answers even if I do sound utterly clueless!
 
Batfink said:
Hi all,

This is probably a really obvious question which was covered in my first communion class but I don’t remember :banghead:

How was the Eucharist at the Last Supper able to be the body, blood, soul & divinity of Christ while Christ was still also physically present in human form at the table? Is it just some form of ineffable mystery deal to do with God not being tied to chronological time so the Last Supper was still a re-presentation of Calvary although pre-dating it? Or is there some other explanation?
While I’m here, on a completely separate note and not really linked to Sacred Scripture directly, I was wondering about indulgences… specifically transfering them to the holy souls in purgatory:
  1. if I gain a plenary indulgence (and I know it’s hard to be sure 😊), does this mean that one person in purgatory has their temporal punishment completely remitted and ascends to Heaven, or do many people each get a part share in the merits, or do we not know?
  2. Similarly, is it possible to designate specific people/groups of people whom you wish the indulgence to be transfered to, or do we just leave it to God to decide? So can I, for example, say “for any members of the Dominican order or any people in my own family”?
Sorry if these questions sound completely stupid, but I am curious to know the answers even if I do sound utterly clueless!
Click to expand...
I answer to the first par: it is exactly as you stated.
 
Batfink said:
Hi all,

This is probably a really obvious question which was covered in my first communion class but I don’t remember :banghead:

How was the Eucharist at the Last Supper able to be the body, blood, soul & divinity of Christ while Christ was still also physically present in human form at the table? Is it just some form of ineffable mystery deal to do with God not being tied to chronological time so the Last Supper was still a re-presentation of Calvary although pre-dating it? Or is there some other explanation?
While I’m here, on a completely separate note and not really linked to Sacred Scripture directly, I was wondering about indulgences… specifically transfering them to the holy souls in purgatory:
  1. if I gain a plenary indulgence (and I know it’s hard to be sure 😊), does this mean that one person in purgatory has their temporal punishment completely remitted and ascends to Heaven, or do many people each get a part share in the merits, or do we not know?
  2. Similarly, is it possible to designate specific people/groups of people whom you wish the indulgence to be transfered to, or do we just leave it to God to decide? So can I, for example, say “for any members of the Dominican order or any people in my own family”?
Sorry if these questions sound completely stupid, but I am curious to know the answers even if I do sound utterly clueless!
Click to expand...
In answer to your first question, I have always just taken Jesus at His word and not worried about the how of it. In answer to your second question, I designate whom I wish to receive the plenary indulgence, or partial indulgences. At times I simply tell God to use the indulgences as He sees fit. They never go to waste.
 
Batfink said:
Hi all,

This is probably a really obvious question which was covered in my first communion class but I don’t remember :banghead:
Click to expand...
Hi Batfink, it is a good question, and not obvious at all. It might not have been covered!
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batfink:
How was the Eucharist at the Last Supper able to be the body, blood, soul & divinity of Christ while Christ was still also physically present in human form at the table? Is it just some form of ineffable mystery deal to do with God not being tied to chronological time so the Last Supper was still a re-presentation of Calvary although pre-dating it? Or is there some other explanation?
Click to expand...
I think you actually have two separate questions here – one explicitly stated and one implicitly stated, which I’ll restate and you tell me if it was what you were thinking:
  1. How was the Christ present in the Eucharist and also at the table at the Last Supper?
and
  1. If the Last Supper was a Mass, how did Christ offer sacrifice when Calvary hadn’t happened yet?
Both are mysterious, but there is some light to be had, I think.

In reply to No. 1, we ought to note that Christ is present in the Eucharist in a real and substantial way, but in a sacramental way, under a mode of presence that is different than His normal, physical mode of presence. But, it is always the same Christ present, at that actual time. He was present both in his proper mode reclining at table, and present in a sacramental mode in the Eucharist.

St. Thomas Aquinas points out that it is really Christ present in the Eucharist just as He is at the time the Eucharist is confected. So. . . at the Last Supper the Eucharist was “Christ at the table, able to suffer and die”. During our time the Eucharist is “Christ in Heaven, unable to suffer and die”. St. Thomas highlights this by remarking that if the Eucharist were confected while Christ was in the tomb (it wouldn’t have been, but if it had been) then the Eucharist would have been “Christ dead, in the tomb”.

That is a very real presence!

As to no 2:

I think the best answer is that the sacrifice of the Last Supper relates to Calvary by way of anticipation just as the Mass relates to Calvary by way of representation. So, using the language of the Council of Trent, we can say that at the Last Supper, a true sacrifice, it was the same Priest (Christ) offering the same Offering (his Body and Blood) as Calvary, only the mode of offering was different.

That is as much as I would want to say about it. It is fashionable now a days to speak about the Sacrifice of Calvary as transcending time in some way (which surely is true in a certain respect), such that the the Mass is Calvary (not just the sacrifice of Calvary, but the events of Calvary) somehow. I personally find this way of talking about it to be less than satisfying, somewhat confused, and running the risk of obscuring the actual present sacrificial nature of the Mass. There is much value to it in a devotional way – and I think it started as devotional language. I’m just not sure of its theological value or pedigree.

VC
 
Thanks everyone, you’ve made some really useful comments.

Verbum Caro - do you know where the point from Aquinas can be found? I have the Summa, but with a very poor index; it’s a great quote!
 
Batfink,

Those quotes I gave weren’t from Aquinas, I’m sorry. They were from me, paraphrasing the concept – imagine me making quote motions with my fingers as I said it. :cool:

But, what you are looking for is in the Summa Theologica, Part III, Question 81. Each of the 4 articles in Question 81 are important, and in my opinion, amazing.

Let us know if you have any thoughts about it!

VC
 
It’s ok, I didn’t think you were actually quoting, I just used that word for want of a better one.

I love how, every time I think I have some weird stupid question, Thomas has thought of it, answered it, and come up with three or four others I never considered!

I was particularly interested in what he had to say about the Christ in the Eucharist dying - to me it seems logical that if one of the Apostles confected the Eucharist at that time, Christ would be dead (although I wouldn’t have thought of it myself), but I found it less obvious how Christ present in a pyx saved from the Last Supper would die at the moment that he died on the cross; very interesting! The stuff about Judas was good too.
 
Right! We see here the very reality of the real presence. It is really Him (and not a kind of static image of Him, or exemplar of Him).

It sometimes can cause someone to give it a second look, because catechetically the fact that the Eucharist is “the body, blood, soul, and divinity” of Christ is (rightfully) stressed. So, when someone says that it could just be the Body and not the Blood or Soul. . . there might be an objection made.

What’s happening is that a distinction isn’t made that OUR Eucharist is always the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. The Real Presence, per se, doesn’t (or didn’t) have to always be such, because Christ wasn’t always that way. Likewise, Christ in the Eucharist – now – has a glorified Body. . . but that wasn’t always the case. (And therefore, the Eucharist at the Last Supper contained a passible body, not an impassible one.)

VC
 
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