The Lonely Altars of God, Good Places To Keep The Tabernacle, and, His Back To The People

[I_Believe]

How can dismissing the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and proceeding to conduct the Liturgy with one’s back to that Altar be justified ?

Increased participation ? Priests praying Holy Mass with their backs to the faithful was issue enough ?

I don’t have a problem with a reverent NO, but an NO Altar placed near the foot of a High Altar in a pre NO church ?

Someone make me understand this.

 

[sevendolours]

The Ceremonies of the Modern Roman Rite state that all remaining High Altars and Side Altars are to be treated with respect and reverence if they have not been de-consecrated. As such, the mensa is to be covered with a dust cloth. They may be turned into shrines for popular devotions and votive lights and candles may be lit before them.

Churches with High Altars should be celebrating Mass ad orientem as the rubrics do not call for Mass being celebrated toward the people. In any case, I suppose it would be alright if the High Altar has been de-consecrated.

It may be interesting to note that it was a mortal sin for a priest to celebrate Mass with his back to the Altar in the past.

I once saw a N.O. priest kneel before the steps of the Altar during the reverencing before ascending them; he was probably making his own prayers at the foot of the Altar.

 

[Dioscorus]

How can dismissing the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and proceeding to conduct the Liturgy with one’s back to that Altar be justified ?

Increased participation ? Priests praying Holy Mass with their backs to the faithful was issue enough ?

I don’t have a problem with a reverent NO, but an NO Altar placed near the foot of a High Altar in a pre NO church ?

Someone make me understand this.

Anything to diss the NO! What your parish could do if it had the money is to rip out the main altar, and construct an altar in the middle of the sanctuary. Some money could be saved by keeping the original altar to be used in the new construction.

 

[I_Believe]

The Ceremonies of the Modern Roman Rite state that all remaining High Altars and Side Altars are to be treated with respect and reverence if they have not been de-consecrated. As such, the mensa is to be covered with a dust cloth. They may be turned into shrines for popular devotions and votive lights and candles may be lit before them.

Churches with High Altars should be celebrating Mass ad orientem as the rubrics do not call for Mass being celebrated toward the people. In any case, I suppose it would be alright if the High Altar has been de-consecrated.

It may be interesting to note that it was a mortal sin for a priest to celebrate Mass with his back to the Altar in the past.

I once saw a N.O. priest kneel before the steps of the Altar during the reverencing before ascending them; he was probably making his own prayers at the foot of the Altar.

Ok, thanks.

“It may be interesting to note that it was a mortal sin for a priest to celebrate Mass with his back to the Altar in the past.”

That is indeed interesting. And the word “was” bugs me.

 

[stmaria]

I find the prayers at the foot of the altar to be one of the most awe inspiring parts of the Traditional Mass. This part of the Mass represents the agony in the garden. The priest humbles himself while facing God in the Tabernacle that is on the altar.
Psalm 42 is followed by the double confiteor which is another inspiring part ot the Mass.Here is how Dom Prosper Gueranger describes the Confiteor.
“The priest begins the confession and, first of all, he accuses himself to God. But he is not satisfied with that; he as good as says: “Not only do I desire to confess my sings to God, but to all the saints in order that they may join their prayer with mine, and obtain pardon for me.” Therefore he immediately adds: I confess to Blessed Mary ever Virgin”…He does the same to the glorious St Michael, the great Archangel, who is appointed to watch over the souls, especially at the hour of death. In like manner, he confesses to St. John the Baptist…lastly, he desires to own his sins to Sts. Peter and Paul, the two princes of the Apostles."

 

[HelenRose]

It may be interesting to note that it was a mortal sin for a priest to celebrate Mass with his back to the Altar in the past.

.

Please explain this. When was this a mortal sin and what document stated that it was a mortal sin?

Was this official Church dogma?

 

[I_Believe]

I find the prayers at the foot of the altar to be one of the most awe inspiring parts of the Traditional Mass. This part of the Mass represents the agony in the garden. The priest humbles himself while facing God in the Tabernacle that is on the altar.
Psalm 42 is followed by the double confiteor which is another inspiring part ot the Mass.Here is how Dom Prosper Gueranger describes the Confiteor.
“The priest begins the confession and, first of all, he accuses himself to God. But he is not satisfied with that; he as good as says: “Not only do I desire to confess my sings to God, but to all the saints in order that they may join their prayer with mine, and obtain pardon for me.” Therefore he immediately adds: I confess to Blessed Mary ever Virgin”…He does the same to the glorious St Michael, the great Archangel, who is appointed to watch over the souls, especially at the hour of death. In like manner, he confesses to St. John the Baptist…lastly, he desires to own his sins to Sts. Peter and Paul, the two princes of the Apostles."

Yes, and all this before the priest dares to approach the Altar.
I can’t imagine the rational for abandoning this when the Novus Ordo was designed. It’s very troubling.

 

[lampstand]

I grew up in the post-Vatican II era and didn’t have a chance to know why the previous way was that way. Now that the LM has returned, I’m glad, because people can see that the priest, by his actions, was simply putting Christ ahead of everybody else-- he is not rejecting people, but quite the opposite, going forward to represent them and act on their behalf. The priest’s very job is stand for us at the altar.

Picture people all standing in a line. If one of them takes a few steps out in front, the people behind him can now see his back… but this is not the same as what ‘turning your back’ on someone usually means. Different context, different result. When people see the real motive, I would hope they would try to understand.

 

[stmaria]

Yes, and all this before the priest dares to approach the Altar.
I can’t imagine the rational for abandoning this when the Novus Ordo was designed. It’s very troubling.

The prayers at the foot of the altar [Psalm 42]had to be removed because the tabernacle was removed and many of the altars were replaced with tables.
Psalm 42, “Send forth thy light and thy truth: they have conducted me and brought me unto Thy holy hill, and into Thy tabernacles"
And I will go in to the altar of God…”

Without the tabernacle and an altar this prayer would be out of place.

 

[I_Believe]

The prayers at the foot of the altar [Psalm 42]had to be removed because the tabernacle was removed and many of the altars were replaced with tables.
Psalm 42, “Send forth thy light and thy truth: they have conducted me and brought me unto Thy holy hill, and into Thy tabernacles"
And I will go in to the altar of God…”

Without the tabernacle and an altar this prayer would be out of place.

Ok, makes sense now. But in a lot of the older churches, the High Altar is still there with the Tabernacle on it. That is what concerns me.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Ok, makes sense now. But in a lot of the older churches, the High Altar is still there with the Tabernacle on it. That is what concerns me.

Exactly what is the concern?

 

[I_Believe]

Exactly what is the concern?

What I said in in OP.

Perhaps I’m scrupulous.

 

[sevendolours]

It may be interesting to note that it was a mortal sin for a priest to celebrate Mass with his back to the Altar in the past.

This can be found in the rubrics in the Roman Missals.

What your parish could do if it had the money is to rip out the main altar, and construct an altar in the middle of the sanctuary. Some money could be saved by keeping the original altar to be used in the new construction.

What some parishes in my dioceses did was to remove the mensa from the High Altar, placing in the middle of the sanctuary. This managed to retain the traditional charm of the sanctuary.

Yes, and all this before the priest dares to approach the Altar. I can’t imagine the rational for abandoning this when the Novus Ordo was designed. It’s very troubling.

This was done to satisfy the Protestants! (Read the entire Judica Me).

 

[I_Believe]

This was done to satisfy the Protestants! (Read the entire Judica Me).

Too much doctrine there for them ? Am I close ?

 

[AJV]

The prayers at the foot of the altar [Psalm 42]had to be removed because the tabernacle was removed and many of the altars were replaced with tables.
Psalm 42, “Send forth thy light and thy truth: they have conducted me and brought me unto Thy holy hill, and into Thy tabernacles"
And I will go in to the altar of God…”

Without the tabernacle and an altar this prayer would be out of place.

Um, no. The NO is using “altar” umpteen times in the rubrics and doesn’t want to put it in at the beginning? That reason sounds a bit strange.

Consider that this prayer is said before every altar, tabernacle or no taberancle. “tabernacula” in Latin is also plural.

sevendolours:

This was done to satisfy the Protestants! (Read the entire Judica Me).

No such thing. Actually, if you look at early Protestant ordo’s (e.g. Sweden, 1576) the Judica Me is retained in some. If you look at Protestant psalters for for psalms to be sung at communion services, the list is even more.

It was done because it was believed to be an “accretion” seeing that it was originally said in the sanctuary and transferred to the altar. This was proposed as early as the 1950’s in the liturgical conferences such as Lugano.

This can be found in the rubrics in the Roman Missals.

Which rubric would this be?

 

[AJV]

The prayers at the foot of the altar [Psalm 42]had to be removed because the tabernacle was removed and many of the altars were replaced with tables.
Psalm 42, “Send forth thy light and thy truth: they have conducted me and brought me unto Thy holy hill, and into Thy tabernacles"
And I will go in to the altar of God…”

Without the tabernacle and an altar this prayer would be out of place.

Um, no. The NO is using “altar” umpteen times in the rubrics and doesn’t want to put it in at the beginning? That reason sounds a bit strange.

Consider that this prayer is said before every altar, tabernacle or no taberancle. “tabernacula” in Latin is also plural.

sevendolours:

This was done to satisfy the Protestants! (Read the entire Judica Me).

No such thing. Actually, if you look at early Protestant ordo’s (e.g. Sweden, 1576) the Judica Me is retained in some. If you look at Protestant psalters for for psalms to be sung at communion services, the list is even more.

It was done because it was believed to be an “accretion” seeing that it was originally said in the sanctuary and transferred to the altar. This was proposed as early as the 1950’s in the liturgical conferences such as Lugano.

This can be found in the rubrics in the Roman Missals.

Which rubric would this be?

I’m a bit puzzled because at given times the rubrics direct the celebrant to turn his back to the tabernacle to salute the people. The only exception is for Mass coram Sanctissimo when he draws aside.

 

[I_Believe]

The harder I look, the more troubled I am. The TLM has not been reduced to memory, thank God, but I found this…

Alluding to the composition of the New Mass, Father Duggan states: "It is enough to compare the text of this Missal (the Missal of 1570) with the Novus Ordo of 1969 to see that there has been a ** revolutionary change ** (November AD2000).

Fr Duggan’s contention that the liturgical change is revolutionary is corroborated by Father Joseph Gelineau SJ whose credentials for commenting on the New Mass could scarcely be more authoritative. Fr Gelineau was one of the most influential of Archbishop Bugnini’s Consilium which was charged with composing the New Mass after Vatican II. He was described by the Archbishop as one of “the great masters of the international liturgical world” (The Reform of the Liturgy, page 221). Archbishop Bugnini, it will be recalled, was the principal architect of the Novus Ordo.

In his book Demain la Liturgie (The Liturgy Tomorrow), Fr Gelineau observes: “Let those, who, like myself have known and sung a Latin Gregorian High Mass remember it if they can. Let them compare it with the Mass that we now have. Not only the words, the melodies, and some of the gestures are different. To tell the truth it is a different liturgy of the Mass. This needs to be said without ambiguity: the Roman Rite as we knew it no longer exists (Le Rite Romain tel que nous l’avons connu n’existe plus). It has been destroyed (il est détruit)” (pages 9-10).

Monsignor Klaus Gamber agrees with Fr Gelineau that the Roman Rite has been destroyed. Monsignor writes: “[A]t this critical juncture the traditional Roman Rite, more than one thousand years old, has been destroyed” (The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, page 99).

Father Kenneth Baker SJ, who is editor of the Homiletic & Pastoral Review, concurs with Fr Duggan that the liturgical changes have been revolutionary. Lamenting the numerous changes imposed on the people which they scarcely had time to digest, Fr Baker wrote: “We have been overwhelmed with changes in the Church at all levels but it is the liturgical revolution which touches all of us intimately and immediately” (February 1979).

Cardinal Ratzinger claims that our ecclesial malaise is attributable, at least in part, to the condition of the Liturgy. He writes: “I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the Liturgy”

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Why we have Bishops who can’t accept the MP is beyond my comprehension.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Why we have Bishops who can’t accept the MP is beyond my comprehension.

The more I read these forums the more I understand any and all hesitation the bishops have.

 

[Tim_c]

Churches with High Altars should be celebrating Mass ad orientem as the rubrics do not call for Mass being celebrated toward the people.

From the GIRM

1. The altar should be built apart from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people, which is desirable wherever possible.

 

[HelenRose]

The more I read these forums the more I understand any and all hesitation the bishops have.

I am with you on that. It must be a nightmare dealing with extremists on both sides of this question.

I really don’t understand why there is a controversy. I have had the opportunity to attend two TL Masses. I see why many people love them but I also love the O.N. Mass. They are both valid and both have their purpose. It seems to me that this beautiful, wide, wonderful Church of ours can accommodate both.