The megachurch boom rolls on, but big concerns are rising too

[Padres1969]

I attended a megachurch for a few years. People did seem to be worshiping genuinely. One day I looked around and made some observations. The lights were dim, and you could only really see the band on stage, and not really the people around you. The music was really loud, and you could really only hear yourself sing along with the band. I suddenly realized that there were 3500 people in the “worship center”, and every one of them was “worshiping” (singing) by themselves. That was one of the last times I attended there.

Isn’t that the goal though with churches in this model? You’re supposed to focus on your personal relationship with Christ as they say?

It’s one of the things that keeps me in a high church environment within the Anglican family. I like having a one on one relationship with Christ, but I also feel that at times (Sunday chief among them) we need to communally worship the Lord as well. Even more so in a place we profess his presence is most strong and grace providing (ie: communion).

But again that’s a difference many of these mega churches, particularly the non-denominational ones that are nominally based on a modified baptist tradition (which as I’ve been led to understand it is most of the non-denominations). They don’t believe Christ is present in their breaking of bread if they even partake in it so in essence their gathering in a church is really just an extension of their own personally prayer/bible study with some teaching/guidance provided by the pastor.

 

[Memaw]

No it’s average weekend attendance. Yes many of the mega churches have more than 2000 at one service. But the trend is considered to include any of these “Christian” churches that have over 2000 weekend attendees. Pew, Hartford Institute and Wikipedia utilize this weekend definition. This definition has been in part due to many of the mega churches that originally have one large service dividing the services up and/or opening satellite locations and either replicating the main site’s sermon (or simply rebroadcasting it). The coworker I mentioned above attends “The Rock Church” in San Diego, but she physically goes to one of their satellite locations in a neighboring city where they broadcast the sermon from the main location in San Diego out to. She sees it live, but not in the same building or even city as the pastor.

Catholic Churches aren’t included because they’re not considered “Christian” (ie: read non-denominational, charismatic or Pentecostal (I hesitate to call them Protestant because they typically don’t consider themselves Protestant, more post-Protestant)). Regardless Catholic and Mainline Protestant churches, even the ones that do average over 2000 on a weekend, wouldn’t fit this classification.

Catholics not considered Christians??? That makes me laugh, or it would if it wasn’t so tragic!!! When we are the “Original” Christians and still the only, One, Holy, Catholic And Apostolic Christian Church in the world. Numbers don’t mean a thing. It’s the TRUTH that matters. Jesus said, "I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. Look around and see how secular most denominations have become, even tho they claim to go by the “Bible only.” Sometimes we have to take a good look at ourselves and see where were headed in life and who we are following. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Padres1969]

This I agree with.

As far as preaching in the church, I find it no different than attending bible-study. Reading the bible, studying, and applying it to current life situations.

Honestly, not much different than many of the sermons I can hear at Mass.

Thing is, I think we’re lumping the “Mega-Church” in with all non-denominational, and that’s not fair. The mega church isn’t a true representation.

I laugh at some people complaining about “non-denominationals and their rock&roll music” when at the Church I attended for a good 10 years, music wasn’t allowed.

Well it’s not fair from the POV too that not all mega churches are non-denominational churches. A large percentage of mega churches are very much part of a denomination. Many are Southern Baptist, Assemblies of God, Baptist General Conference, Baptist, Calvary Chapel, Wesleyan, etc…

 

[Padres1969]

Catholics not considered Christians??? That makes me laugh, or it would if it wasn’t so tragic!!! When we are the “Original” Christians and still the only, One, Holy, Catholic And Apostolic Christian Church in the world. Numbers don’t mean a thing. It’s the TRUTH that matters. Jesus said, "I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. Look around and see how secular most denominations have become, even tho they claim to go by the “Bible only.” Sometimes we have to take a good look at ourselves and see where were headed in life and who we are following. God Bless, Memaw

Memaw, hence why I put “Christian” in parenthesis. Don’t read too much into it. Catholic churches aren’t the only churches over 2000 that aren’t included in the category, which is why I said protestant as a classification defining them also doesn’t work. Nor would I think a Catholic Church that might meet the size requirements or a Mainline Protestant church that met the size requirements want to be included in the category of “MegaChurch.” Most of these churches are either non-denominational, baptist tradition, Pentecostal, or charismatic and most would define themselves as evangelical. None of these definitions really fits Catholicism or Mainline Protestant faiths such as my own.

 

[theropod]

Isn’t that the goal though with churches in this model? You’re supposed to focus on your personal relationship with Christ as they say?

That’s certainly part of it, although at least the one I attended tried to make being a part of the body and doing things corporately important. There is a lot of cognitive dissonance in these places.

 

[Allegra]

isn’t that 2000 number supposed to be at one service?

Many Catholic Churches have over 2000 people attending on Sundays, but not all at the same Mass.

I was thinking the same thing. I guess I attend a mega-church?

 

[Padres1969]

I was thinking the same thing. I guess I attend a mega-church?

Nope:

"The term megachurch generally refers to any Protestant (see below regarding very large Catholic churches) Christian congregation with a sustained average weekly attendance of 2000 persons or more in its worship services, counting all adults and children at all its worship locations. "

the other less specific definitions being

“an independent church with a very large membership in regular attendance, focusing on an evangelical or conservative Christian theology and offering a variety of educational and social activities.”

“a church with an unusually large congregation, typically one preaching a conservative or evangelical form of Christianity.”

Catholic Churches generally wouldn’t fit even the less specific definitions.

Regardless though, we’re getting off track. Megachurches, getting bigger, people attending less often… why?

 

[phil19034]

Nope:

"The term megachurch generally refers to any Protestant (see below regarding very large Catholic churches) Christian congregation with a sustained average weekly attendance of 2000 persons or more in its worship services, counting all adults and children at all its worship locations. "

the other less specific definitions being

“an independent church with a very large membership in regular attendance, focusing on an evangelical or conservative Christian theology and offering a variety of educational and social activities.”

“a church with an unusually large congregation, typically one preaching a conservative or evangelical form of Christianity.”

Catholic Churches generally wouldn’t fit even the less specific definitions.

Regardless though, we’re getting off track. Megachurches, getting bigger, people attending less often… why?

Catholic Churches can meet this definition:

“**a church with an unusually large congregation, typically one preaching a conservative **or evangelical form of Christianity.”

 

[Memaw]

Memaw, hence why I put “Christian” in parenthesis. Don’t read too much into it. Catholic churches aren’t the only churches over 2000 that aren’t included in the category, which is why I said protestant as a classification defining them also doesn’t work. Nor would I think a Catholic Church that might meet the size requirements or a Mainline Protestant church that met the size requirements want to be included in the category of “MegaChurch.” Most of these churches are either non-denominational, baptist tradition, Pentecostal, or charismatic and most would define themselves as evangelical. None of these definitions really fits Catholicism or Mainline Protestant faiths such as my own.

When I said “numbers don’t mean a thing,” I wasn’t referring to how many attended. It doesn’t matter of there are a million attending, if they are not being taught the TRUTH, what a loss. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Padres1969]

Catholic Churches can meet this definition:

As I said, it’s a more loose definition and one that doesn’t really include what we’re talking about. Catholic Churches to my knowledge are never included in the category (nor would they want to be). Same goes for most mainline protestant churches.

Anyway back on track, what do you think it causing this strange dichotomy of a growing church segment, yet seeing poor week over week repeat attendance?

Could it be their message not resonating and people trying them out and moving on (which would seem odd considering the segment is growing)?

Could it be that it is resonating and the attendees as a result don’t see a reason to go back as often? I mean I’ve heard bits and pieces of what Joel Osteen preaching for example, and his message does come across as somewhat as “self help” (and I’ve heard it described as such elsewhere). So once you’ve felt you’ve been “helped” you don’t go back until you need help again?

Could it be as mentioned earlier that due to many of these mega churches having an extensive “online” (or even on TV) presence that people don’t feel the need to be present in person as often (and their theology doesn’t teach any kind of real presence of Christ in their form, if they have one, of communion)?

Could it be that people are simply overwhelmed by being lost in a massive crowd and attend other similarly theologically aligned smaller churches on weeks they don’t attend the mega church?

Is it all of the above? Is it something else?

 

[ProVobis]

If I were Protestant again, give me a tiny church with a modest choir, a old piano and an honest pastor any day over these over-blown entertainment centers.

I can understand well that intimacy factor, which large churches with large attendances don’t have. I see more of a herd mentality with the latter.

 

[theropod]

Could it be that people are simply overwhelmed by being lost in a massive crowd and attend other similarly theologically aligned smaller churches on weeks they don’t attend the mega church?

Is it all of the above? Is it something else?

It’s all of the above. I’m sure that in the mind of some, requiring weekly attendance would amount to “legalism”. It’s also easy to hide in that nobody’s going to come looking for you if you don’t show up. That’s why the megachurch I attended made participation in a small group mandatory for membership. That way someone is supposedly looking out for you. Only about 1/3 of those in attendance were members though. Agreeing to regular Sunday worship was part of the membership covenant. You could count on actual members showing up weekly for the most part. There was always an effort to get the “regular attenders” who weren’t members to step up and commit themselves. But if you are looking for something non-committal, a megachurch is the perfect place to hide out.

 

[theropod]

As an aside, I don’t think most churches are all that comfortable with the label “megachurch”, even if they meet the definition. It’s almost always used as a pejorative. A very large non-denom church that was more biblically sound doesn’t like being associated with Joel Osteen’s church and would reject being labeled as the same thing.

 

[Padres1969]

As an aside, I don’t think most churches are all that comfortable with the label “megachurch”, even if they meet the definition. It’s almost always used as a pejorative. A very large non-denom church that was more biblically sound doesn’t like being associated with Joel Osteen’s church and would reject being labeled as the same thing.

This is definitely true. Many ostensibly megachurch pastors actually preach specifically against Joel Osteen’s brand of churchmanship. John MacArthur from Grace Community Church comes to mind.

 

[ltwin]

So what you are saying is to be considered a Mega-Church you cannot have an IRS exemption. (The IRS does not consider non-denominational Churches as “Churches” so they have to pay taxes)

Not true. I attend a non-denominational church, and it is tax-exempt.The IRS does not make determinations such as these because it would be favoring one form of religion (hierarchical religions) over another form of religion (independent/self-governing congregations).

Think for a minute. Legally, all Baptist churches are non-denominational aside from the name. Are you telling me that the IRS discriminates against Baptist churches because their congregations are autonomous?

The IRS distinguishes between churches and religious organizations. Churches can be denominational or non-denominational. Religious organizations can be non-denominational, interdenominational, or ecumenical.

 

[Padres1969]

It’s all of the above. I’m sure that in the mind of some, requiring weekly attendance would amount to “legalism”. It’s also easy to hide in that nobody’s going to come looking for you if you don’t show up. That’s why the megachurch I attended made participation in a small group mandatory for membership. That way someone is supposedly looking out for you. Only about 1/3 of those in attendance were members though. Agreeing to regular Sunday worship was part of the membership covenant. You could count on actual members showing up weekly for the most part. There was always an effort to get the “regular attenders” who weren’t members to step up and commit themselves. But if you are looking for something non-committal, a megachurch is the perfect place to hide out.

Interesting take. Kind of “sitting in the back” of the church to the extreme.

I’ve known a few people who attended Mega Churches. One does so because she likes the pastor (he’s a very charismatic former NFL player) and she does attend pretty regularly (if not weekly) and I’ve seen her watching online sermons and the like from the church, usually on weeks she wasn’t able to attend. Though I don’t know if she’d be classified as a “member” as I don’t know if that church has the kind of distinction you’re talking about. But it is possible she does attend for the anonymity aspect. I’ll have to ask.

Another attends a smaller megachurch and is a very active member attending at least weekly, is involved with the women’s group, etc… so I don’t think that would apply to her as she’s a visible active member of her church. And she’s actively trying to bring her children into that church as well (she’s ex-LDS and her ex-husband is still LDS so they’re in a theological battle as it were for their children (who are at least currently on paper LDS)).

The third attended the same church as the first, but he eventually dropped out of going to attend a smaller non-denominational church. I believe he wasn’t particularly active in the mega church and would have just been an attendee. He’s not particularly active in his new non-denominational church either and he often forgoes weekly services even at the smaller church to simply do his own quiet bible study on Sundays. And he’s changed non-denominational churches at least once since he left the mega church. It’s almost as if he church shops as needed and does most of his “churchmanship” himself with communal church simply acting as an add on.

So two of them are very close to what the article is describing happening and one at least in part agrees with the idea of being somewhat anonymous and the other with the idea of the influx and lack of regular retention being a somewhat “church shopping” phenomenon.

 

[phil19034]

Not true. I attend a non-denominational church, and it is tax-exempt.The IRS does not make determinations such as these because it would be favoring one form of religion (hierarchical religions) over another form of religion (independent/self-governing congregations).

Think for a minute. Legally, all Baptist churches are non-denominational aside from the name. Are you telling me that the IRS discriminates against Baptist churches because their congregations are autonomous?

The IRS distinguishes between churches and religious organizations. Churches can be denominational or non-denominational. Religious organizations can be non-denominational, interdenominational, or ecumenical.

OK. I guess I misunderstood what the IRS was calling a “non-denominational ministry”

 

[ltwin]

OK. I guess I misunderstood what the IRS was calling a “non-denominational ministry”

A “ministry” can refer to anything from an activity by a church to an “evangelistic ministry”, such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. These “ministries” are not churches; they typically operate as parachurch operations (i.e. they help fulfill the mission of the Church but are not churches).

 

[Padres1969]

A “ministry” can refer to anything from an activity by a church to an “evangelistic ministry”, such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. These “ministries” are not churches; they typically operate as parachurch operations (i.e. they help fulfill the mission of the Church but are not churches).

Mentioning Billy Graham makes me wonder, where is the dividing line between a MegaChurch and a Televangelist or other Billy Graham type. I mean Joel Osteen and his Lakewood Church are undoubtedly huge, but they also would seem to skew far into the televangelist area too seeing a Osteen takes his sermons on tour to arenas and stadia all over the country. And many of his “flock” are people who have never set foot in his church.

 

[ltwin]

Mentioning Billy Graham makes me wonder, where is the dividing line between a MegaChurch and a Televangelist or other Billy Graham type. I mean Joel Osteen and his Lakewood Church are undoubtedly huge, but they also would seem to skew far into the televangelist area too seeing a Osteen takes his sermons on tour to arenas and stadia all over the country. And many of his “flock” are people who have never set foot in his church.

It’s pretty simple. Megachurches are churches. Evangelistic/Televangelism ministries are not churches–they are ministries. Sometimes these ministries are ran from inside churches. Other times, such as in Billy Graham’s case, they operate as independent organizations.

Joel Osteen is a pastor of a megachurch, which just so happens to be involved in televangelism.