The Mormons And The Jehovah's Witnesses Are The Same Organisation (illuminati)

[iwonder]

Casen:

Iwonder,
You continue to reveal your ignorance about my church. Perhaps you should read the Book of Mormon first before criticizing it. I invite Jerusha to do the same. You guys are like a movie critic that repeatedly criticizes a movie he’s never seen!

BJRump,
The reason LDS missionaries focus on the Book of Mormon initially is because if a person gains a testimony of that book then it logically follows that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and the church he restored is the true church of Jesus Christ. If the Book of Mormon is a fraud than Joseph Smith and the church he established is also a fraud. In other words, the church rises or falls on the Book of Mormon. And there is nothing in the Book of Mormon that contradicts the Pearl of Great Price or Doctrine and Covenants.

Don’t be ridiculous casen. I am taking my info from the lds site and directly from the Official Declaration, and Covenants and Doctrines. At least I took the time to read it and I’m not even a Mormon. I would suggest you do the same.

 

[Casen]

BJRumph,
Actually, all the LDS standard works are in harmony. If you would like I can walk you though any perceived inconsistencies you struggle with on another thread. We can start with the topic of polygamy since you brought it up.

Re: Unfortunately Casen; the logic of “if the BoM is true, then everything else claimed by JS is true as well” argument is fallacious

Yes, you could make an argument that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and the Book of Mormon is actual scripture but he later fell away. Is that what you are suggesting?

Anyway, that doesn’t change the fact that the Book of Mormon is a good place to start with church investigators. You have to start somewhere and the Book of Mormon is something unique to Mormonism so it’s a logical place to start. You seem to be upset by this fact. If you have a recommendation for a more effective introduction to our church perhaps you should write a letter to the missionary department with your recommendation.

Re: The “Fullness of the Gospel” is claimed to be in the BoM, and yet the church does not follow the gospel found therein!

What specific doctrine in the Book of Mormon does the church not follow?

 

[Casen]

Iwonder said:
Don’t be ridiculous casen. I am taking my info from the lds site and directly from the Official Declaration, and Covenants and Doctrines. At least I took the time to read it and I’m not even a Mormon. I would suggest you do the same.

But iwonder, you said the following:

*The Book of Mormon specifically mentions Kolob repeatedly and eternal progression. *

“Mentioned repeatedly” in the Book of Mormon? Name one example; chapter and verse please.

 

[flameburns623]

Casen:

Iwonder said:
Don’t be ridiculous casen. I am taking my info from the lds site and directly from the Official Declaration, and Covenants and Doctrines. At least I took the time to read it and I’m not even a Mormon. I would suggest you do the same.

But iwonder, you said the following:

*The Book of Mormon specifically mentions Kolob repeatedly and eternal progression. *

“Mentioned repeatedly” in the Book of Mormon? Name one example; chapter and verse please.

Here’s a few verses, just to get you started:

Mormon Hymnal, # 284 : “If I could Hie to Kolob”.

If you could hie** to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward with the speed of light to fly,
D’ye think that you could ever, through all eternity,
Find out the generation where Gods began to be?

Or see the grand beginning, where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation where Gods and matter end?
Methinks the Spirit whispers, “No man has found ‘pure space’,”
Nor seen the outside curtains, where nothing has a place.

The works of God continue, and worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter; there is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit; there is no end to race.**

 

[Casen]

Flameburns623,
That is one of my favorite church hymns and was written William W Phelps. However, the idea of “Kolob” that inspired the song is not found in the Book of Mormon as iwonder suggested. I brought up the point to illustrate that he continues to criticize a book he has never read.

 

[flameburns623]

Casen:

Flameburns623,
That is one of my favorite church hymns and was written William W Phelps. However, the idea of “Kolob” that inspired the song is not found in the Book of Mormon as iwonder suggested. I brought up the point to illustrate that he continues to criticize a book he has never read.

Casen:

I was horsing around a little. Hence the smiley at the end of the post. “Kolob” of course does NOT appear in the Book of Mormon but in other LDS Standard Works. Probably the use of that phrase, “Standard Works” threw iwonder of the scent.

Somewhere in all of my posts I have several times listed a bibliography of books which non-LDS ought to read in lieu of anti-Mormon literature. I’ll look it up. IMHO Catholics would do better to learn to explain their own doctrines more clearly rather than trying to read books by opponents of other religions–which are likely as not to contain mistakes and distortions. If one wants to learn more about another faith tradition, one should use books commonly used by members of that faith tradition.

This is one of your favorite hymns? REALLY? I was an LDS convert for years and have never heard it sung. I wouldn’t recognize the tune if you dropped the piano on me.

Here’s the booklist I suggested:

flameburns623:

The Articles of Faith by James Talmage

Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage

***A Marvelous Work and a Wonder ***by LeGrand Richards

The House of the Lord by James Talmage (Talmage is a classic LDS writer, greatly revered).

***Church History in the Fulness of Times ***distributed by the LDS Church (Church Distribution)

Gospel Principles Church Distribution

An Approach to the Book of Mormon by Hugh Nibley

The Mormon Doctrine of Deity by B.H Roberts (another much-revered classic LDS apologist–who is rumored to have suffered doubts about his Mormon faith in his declining years, btw).

Encylopedia of Mormonism (Not suggesting anyone read the whole set but selected articles as needed)

***The Work and the Glory ***Gerald Lund (9-volume fictional account of Joseph Smith–good intro to LDS history).

*You’ll find many of these in a public library or available there via inter-library loan. Your girlfriends’ Ward library may also lend you some of them as well. And offer to lend you gobs of others. No need to buy them all nor to read them all: you simply want to gain real insight into the mind and spirituality of Mormonism. These, plus the LDS ‘Standard Works’ (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, along with the King James Bible) will give you plenty of grasp of basic Mormonism. *

Just making the effort to learn will help keep dialogue open. If all you do is read ‘anti-Mormon’ stuff and regurgitate this back to your Mormon acquaintances–you’ll hit the shoals of irresolvable disagreement pretty quickly. Especially when you stumble across something which is clearly inaccurate and/or hateful in it’s presentation. The Mormons will spot the inaccuracies immediately and ‘mark’ you mentally as someone who is simply uninterested in knowing the truth about their faith. They will usually cease giving you a hearing, and often they won’t bother even to pretend to listen

Over and beyond this I heartily advise people to read and study orthodox Christian doctrine and learn how to explain it to others and answer the most-common objections raised. Far better to learn the attributes of the authentic than to try to recognize every possible manifestation of the counterfeit.

 

[Casen]

RE: If one wants to learn more about another faith tradition, one should use books commonly used by members of that faith tradition.

I agree. I won’t read anti-literature about any faith because it’s always full of distortions and a person doesn’t get an accurate picture of the religion. I personally enjoy learning about other faiths and I always talk to an active member of the religion for recommendations before embarking on a study program. Your list of suggested books would be a great place to start if one wanted to learn about the LDS faith.