The Muslim Mary

[AgnosTheist]

why do Christians not hold these views… and why do Muslims?

Because muslims have no choice but to believe everything that Mohammad said.

Christians have a choice, but why should they believe Mohammad’s version of events that contradicts their bible?

 

[markhiggins01]

I wanted to tell you about a new video I have produced on Youtube, titled
“The Blessed Virgin Mary and Islam”. The video explains the role of the
Blessed Virgin from the Islamic perspective, it then goes on to present how
God has been using this veneration to bring Muslims to the fullness of truth
about Jesus- particularily through apparitions, mystical experiences, but
also through the fact that Catholic theology really explains the role of
Marian emphasis in the Qu’ran better than Islam.

youtube.com/markhiggins01
(the video is on this page.)

The video 34 minutes long and is broken into 4 parts, it builds on the
writings of Servants of God Frank Duff and Archibishop Fulton Sheen who
themselves wrote on this topic and which your readers may be familiar with.
There really aren’t many Catholic apologetical materials to approach Muslims
with which aren’t condemning them as satan worshippers or focusing on the
character of Mohammed, a topic which is extreemly sensitive and probably
best to put to one side if a fruitful dialogue is to be acheived. I think
that the Virgin is a great starting point and like St Luis Marie De Montfort
see devotion to Mary as the pathway through which Muslims will come to reach
Christ.

 

[Montalban]

Kindly produce your proof.

Where in the Qur’an is it stated that Mary is part of the Trinity?

Although others have answered you, here’s my go at it…

Q: Iv) According to Qur’an and earlier commentaries, the Christian Trinity consists of God, Mary and Jesus, e.g. 5:116.
A: (d) There were and there are such Christian denominations who include Mary in God head. As they are lesser in number, Qur’an mentioned them. But on other occasions, when the Qur’an denounces Trinity, the statement is applicable to all those who practice any kind of Trinity in the worship of God. The following verse may include even thou who believe in the Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, professing God-head for them.
islamicvoice.com/april.98/OURD.HTM
Remember this is AFTER the Trinity was affirmed, and as I claimed earlier, Muhammad got his idea from heretical Christians and he simply assumed that they were representative of all Christians.
But there’s more…
From elsewhere on the same site…
“As for erroneous Christian concepts, the Qur’an speaks of the Christian belief in the trinity and their claim that Jesus, son of Mary, was Allah Himself. They also attribute divinity to Jesus and his mother, considering them gods. They also consider their priests and monks to have divine authority.”
islamicvoice.com/february.98/SPEA.HTM
"The following verses in the Qur’an say about Mary being the part of Trinity.

And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur’an 5:116]

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not “Three”: desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur’an 4:171]"
islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/marytrin.html
This site then makes the laughable attempt at re-writing Christian dogma, to state that when Muhammed stated this, Christians had this as the Trinity, but we later changed it!
It ends with this…
“So, in conclusion, there is no point calling the modern day trinitarian Christianity as ‘true’ Christianity and all others as ‘false’ since the evolution of this doctrine itself is very late. The early Christianity had bizarre beliefs about their doctrine as well as their Scriptures. Moreover the Jesus(P) and early Church Fathers were utterly unaware of this doctrine and they never practiced it. Would then the modern day ‘true’ Christianity brand them as heretics?” (Ibid)
That regardless of which “Trinity” Christians now believe in, it’s still condemned.
Here’s another spin; that by default of honouring Mary as the Theotokos (Mother of God) we make here a member of the Trinity, instead of the Holy Spirit…
" The obvious conclusion is that for all practical purpose and in reality, when the issue is of Worshipping, Venerating, Deifying and/or Idolizing, it is Mary - the “Mother of God” and not the Holy Ghost has that kind of rank and status. Briefly, the historical figures of Jesus and Mary are venerated as Deities. The Holy Ghost is not venerated as a Deity."
mostmerciful.com/mary.htm

 

[Abira]

Was it THIS documentary you saw Abira by any chance? If so then it was very good.

And for those spreading the oft-repeated lie of the Qur’an claiming Christians worship Mary as part of the Trinity, address the arguments made in THIS thread showing this to be false, or retract your claims.

Yeah that’s the documentary… Thanks for posting a link to it, I didn’t think it was anywhere online yet.

For anyone else check it out as it was a well done documentary that was pretty well balanced with both viewpoints represented in a respectful way to both sides for the most part.

adnant.wordpress.com/2007/08/21/the-muslim-jesus-upon-him-be-peace-parts-one-to-five/

S

 

[Aramis]

hi everyone,

I was watching a programme last night about the Muslim view of Jesus and a section touched on Mary.

They believe that she was alone when she gave birth and was never supported by Joseph.

They believe that she was treated harshly by her society until Jesus spoke as a baby

They have a history of Mary in the Koran from her birth…

why do Christians not hold these views… and why do Muslims?
I’m asking about Mary as I don’t even wanna get into the differences on the life of Jesus…

Can anyone explain what their sources are for these accounts and why Christians have dismissed them?

S

Some of these things are in the Gnostic Christian writings. They were declared heretical before Muhammed’s time. But the Gnostic Christians have, in a few scattered places, survived, and were present in the Middle East at the time of Muhammed.

I suspect Muhammed spake what he thought would convince the Christians he knew, and the ones he knew were Gnostics.

 

[Montalban]

Some of these things are in the Gnostic Christian writings. They were declared heretical before Muhammed’s time. But the Gnostic Christians have, in a few scattered places, survived, and were present in the Middle East at the time of Muhammed.

I suspect Muhammed spake what he thought would convince the Christians he knew, and the ones he knew were Gnostics.

This is true. It’s known that Muhammed got some contact with fringe Christians

 

[Abira]

Some of these things are in the Gnostic Christian writings. They were declared heretical before Muhammed’s time. But the Gnostic Christians have, in a few scattered places, survived, and were present in the Middle East at the time of Muhammed.

I suspect Muhammed spake what he thought would convince the Christians he knew, and the ones he knew were Gnostics.

If he said this to persuade an audience, are you saying that his message would be different if he had had a slightly different audience to convince?

It doesn’t sound like a sound system for recording scripture!

 

[Aramis]

If he said this to persuade an audience, are you saying that his message would be different if he had had a slightly different audience to convince?

It doesn’t sound like a sound system for recording scripture!

It is an awesome system for building an initial base. Once you have a strong and stable base, you can then go forth and spread.

It worked for muhammed, and for Joseph Smith…

 

[Montalban]

It is an awesome system for building an initial base. Once you have a strong and stable base, you can then go forth and spread.

It worked for muhammed, and for Joseph Smith…

Good comparison. Both of these men claimed that the previous ‘message’ had been corrupted - you also need to do this if you being a ‘prophet’ contradicts previous messengers

 

[Aramis]

Good comparison. Both of these men claimed that the previous ‘message’ had been corrupted - you also need to do this if you being a ‘prophet’ contradicts previous messengers

Thanks for pointing that out… Both had to deprecate prior faiths to convert them.

 

[Montalban]

Thanks for pointing that out… Both had to deprecate prior faiths to convert them.

It’s a device used by a lot of faiths; Bah’ai, and paarsurrey’s form of Islam; Ahmadism

Interestingly Jesus never predicted additional ‘prophets’. When Muhammed came along as an extra one he too didn’t predict additional ones either. The Ahmadists do to Islam what Islam did to Christianity; invent an ‘apostasy’