The Myth of the Freedom-Fighter

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What do Che Guevara, Boudica, Vladimir Lenin, Nat Turner, Nana Sahib, and Maximilien Robespierre all have in common? If you answered that “they all fought in open rebellion against unfair governments and are now idolized for this” then you would be correct. But you would also be correct if you answered that “they all ordered or sanctioned the murder of children and other innocent civilians”.

There seems to be a double-standard in how we apply our ethics to the past. Most often we judge people from the past in the same way we would judge people from the present; murder of civilians is evil, murder of children is evil, rape is evil, and people who engage in these activities are condemned as monsters. And this is the way it should be; the majority of religions and philosophies followed today run on the premise that morality is objective and that things evil today were just as evil yesterday or 1,000 years ago.

Yet when a “rebel” from the past commits a heinous atrocity, a disturbing number of people are more than willing to justify and defend the person and their act. If an Emperor orders his soldiers to kill every man, woman, and child in a city whose mayor refused to surrender then it is considered the epitome of sadism and a clear example of the evils that humanity commits against itself.
But replace “Emperor” with “Rebel Leader” and suddenly murdering children becomes acceptable. People laud it as justified, or even praiseworthy. In Colchester and Londinium, two cities Boudica massacred in her rebellion, the present day population has built statues of her to honor her war-crimes. In Bibighar (a place where a member of the Sepoy Rebellion paid butchers to murder and dismember a hundred women and children), the Indian Government actually tore down an existing memorial and replaced it with statues of that rebellion’s leader (people who at best sanctioned the Bibighar Massacre and who at worst ordered it). Both of these are the equivalent of building a statue of William Calley in My Lai with the words “Hero” inscribed underneath.

When questioned on this, many will either ignore the rebel atrocities (often refusing to acknowledge the atrocities in their rebuttals), will accuse the enemies of the rebels as being worse (forgetting that your enemies sins do not exonerate your own), or stating that the murdered civilians and children deserved to die for the transgressions of their parents or their government (forgetting Ezekiel 18, specifically “The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.”).

We as a species need to stop doing this. We need to stop applying ethical double standards and exonerating monsters simply because they make a convenient symbol for our nationalistic tendencies or because they fit an ideological narrative we like. We need to stop glorifying and excusing monsters, we need to admit that sometimes in a conflict both sides are evil, and we need to stop dishonoring the victims of atrocities by building statues of their murderer over their graves. If we don’t than there will just be more mass murders and more dead children.
 
I have a healthy respect for Robespierre and Lenin. Of course both were somewhat involved in atrocities, but they both took part in important historical events and helped advance history. I also believe they both meant well. Lenin in particular is an important socialist theorist, and he is notable outside of his actions in the October revolution and beyond.

I am not a moral absolutist though. The moral decision will be different throughout history.
 
That’s what the People of Israel gathered
at the trial of Jesus decided. They want a
Freedom Fighter, Barabbas(“a murderer”)
and an insurrectionist instead of Jesus, the
silent testifier to the TRUTH, who, by the
will of God “bore the sin of many and made
intercession for the transgressors” Is. 53
 
I have a healthy respect for Robespierre and Lenin. Of course both were somewhat involved in atrocities, but they both took part in important historical events and helped advance history. I also believe they both meant well. Lenin in particular is an important socialist theorist, and he is notable outside of his actions in the October revolution and beyond.

I am not a moral absolutist though. The moral decision will be different throughout history.
To my mind, engagement in atrocities should forfeit any claim to admiration one’s ideas may have; we are admirable for our actions, not our ideas.

Watching for further comments.

ICXC NIKA
 
You should add the Mujahadeen. Also don’t forget the Taliban who are resisting an invasion and occupation.

Che Guevara presided over the execution of the torturers of the Batista regime. It is a fallacy to think that most of the people who were executed were innocent of what they were charged with. The tribunals were similar to the Nuremberg trials.
The vast majority of those executed following the 1959 revolution were policemen, politicians and informers of the Batista regime accused of crimes such as torture and murder, and their public trials and executions had widespread popular support among the Cuban population. Most scholars agree that those executed were probably guilty as accused, but that the trials did not follow due process.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

Saying that the trials did not adhere to due process would not be enough to condemn Che. It would not be satisfactory to the image that conservatives want to create for him.

It is wrong to compare Che with the conduct of a Waffen SS unit, such as Dirlewanger unit. Che did not go to Khatyn and kill everyone.

Aside from the massacres of London and Colchester, Boudica was defending her honor and that of her daughters, and her grievances were not trivial. It is similar to the 47 Ronin who defended the honor of their deceased master.
 
I have a healthy respect for Robespierre and Lenin. Of course both were somewhat involved in atrocities, but they both took part in important historical events and helped advance history. I also believe they both meant well. Lenin in particular is an important socialist theorist, and he is notable outside of his actions in the October revolution and beyond.

I am not a moral absolutist though. The moral decision will be different throughout history.
The fruits of Lenin’s labors led to the deaths of millions. Including THOUSANDS of American soldiers, marines, sailors, and airmen in places like Korea, Vietnam, and who knows where else…

The world would have done just fine without the Soviet Union. The way Lenin ‘advanced’ history was not for the better.

In my opinion, his actions paved the way for a monster (Stalin) and a truly evil empire (the Soviet Union). You are certainly entitled to your opinion - and now you have mine.
 
The fruits of Lenin’s labors led to the deaths of millions. Including THOUSANDS of American soldiers, marines, sailors, and airmen in places like Korea, Vietnam, and who knows where else…
“I shot an error into the air. It’s still going … everywhere.” Heinlein.
 
The fruits of Lenin’s labors led to the deaths of millions. Including THOUSANDS of American soldiers, marines, sailors, and airmen in places like Korea, Vietnam, and who knows where else…

The world would have done just fine without the Soviet Union. The way Lenin ‘advanced’ history was not for the better.

In my opinion, his actions paved the way for a monster (Stalin) and a truly evil empire (the Soviet Union). You are certainly entitled to your opinion - and now you have mine.
The US didn’t have to go to Korea or Vietnam. It was not the Soviet Union’s or Lenin’s fault at all for the American soldiers death. It was the US’ fault for sending them into war.

Now let’s ask ourselves why the US really was in Vietnam. Essentially it was to contain China as stated in official documents, not to help a friend or help the Vietnamese.

The world could have done better without people like Pinochet, Videla, and Franco too. At least the Soviet Union defeated Nazi Germany in World War II.
 
“I shot an error into the air. It’s still going … everywhere.” Heinlein.
The US didn’t have to go to Korea or Vietnam. It was not the Soviet Union’s or Lenin’s fault at all for the American soldiers death. It was the US’ fault for sending them into war.

Now let’s ask ourselves why the US really was in Vietnam. Essentially it was to contain China as stated in official documents, not to help a friend or help the Vietnamese.

The world could have done better without people like Pinochet, Videla, and Franco too. At least the Soviet Union defeated Nazi Germany in World War II.
The way I see it - as an American - is that there is “our side” and “their side”. I am never ever going to take “their side”.

Whatever the reasons “our side” was at war; the “other/their side” was backed up by the Soviet Union - Lenin’s creation. I never once asserted that those conflicts were necessary, but our soldiers (the good guys) fought against and died at the hands of Soviet weapons (supplied by and wielded by the bad guys).

I never made mention of Pinochet, Videla, and Franco - but those men were villains, too. I just took exception with the “respect” for Lenin in post # 3. Didn’t think people would get upset at my thinking Lenin was pretty much one of the worst men in history. Today was the first time I’ve EVER heard of someone “respecting” him and others defending him.
 
The way I see it - as an American - is that there is “our side” and “their side”. I am never ever going to take “their side”.

Whatever the reasons “our side” was at war; the “other/their side” was backed up by the Soviet Union - Lenin’s creation. I never once asserted that those conflicts were necessary, but our soldiers (the good guys) fought against and died at the hands of Soviet weapons (supplied by and wielded by the bad guys).
I am unbiased, and I do not see why fighting them would positively affect the life of the average US citizen. I see the US’ stance in the Cold War as largely unnecessary for the material well-being and security of its citizens. A few hundred nukes is enough to repel any military invasion. There was no need to be involved in external affairs. I support the Henry Wallace position.

Those wars were not fought for my material interests and security.

The US soldiers did not have to die. If they did die, it was the US government’s fault for sending them into war. The US did not have to fight those wars.
 
It looks like you employed one of of the logical fallacies I identified as being used whenever somebody wants to glorify a monster. You seem to be arguing that “not as bad as his enemies” and “a good person deserving of admiration” are the same thing, but they really aren’t. Murdering less people than Stalin doesn’t make Hitler a hero, so being less bad than your enemies doesn’t exonerate you.
You should add the Mujahadeen. Also don’t forget the Taliban who are resisting an invasion and occupation.
I don’t care if they are resisting invasion, occupation, or anything else; NOTHING justifies the intentional killing of civilians.
Che Guevara presided over the execution of the torturers of the Batista regime. It is a fallacy to think that most of the people who were executed were innocent of what they were charged with. The tribunals were similar to the Nuremberg trials.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

Saying that the trials did not adhere to due process would not be enough to condemn Che. It would not be satisfactory to the image that conservatives want to create for him.

It is wrong to compare Che with the conduct of a Waffen SS unit, such as Dirlewanger unit. Che did not go to Khatyn and kill everyone.
To start with, Che didn’t just execute Batista torturers. He executed people who were even loosely connected to the Batista regime, and it is doubtless that some of them are innocent. “Executing people without a trial” seems like a justified action. And no, don’t compare it to Nuremberg; the Nuremberg defendants at least got a damn trial.

This isn’t even mentioning how he traveled around Latin America founding several brutal and murderous Guerrilla groups. It’s no wonder that Cubans who actually met him describe him as a bad person.
Aside from the massacres of London and Colchester, Boudica was defending her honor and that of her daughters, and her grievances were not trivial. It is similar to the 47 Ronin who defended the honor of their deceased master.
NO! You can not just set those massacres aside! She intentionally ordered her men to murder every man, woman, and child in the two cities. Those civilians were entirely innocent, and because she killed them Boudica is a murderer.

There are no such things as ethical blank checks.
 
The fruits of Lenin’s labors led to the deaths of millions.
Certainly he did things I wouldn’t defend. I’m not sure he can be said to be responsible for millions of deaths, though. Definitely he played a part in crushing movements composed of disillusioned members of the working-class, and while he was in power the process of the bureaucratization of the USSR began. I have mixed feelings on him as a politician. As a political theorist he was great, however, and I think his political theory is very valuable and should be read by anyone who is interested in socialism.
Including THOUSANDS of American soldiers, marines, sailors, and airmen in places like Korea, Vietnam, and who knows where else…
I really don’t think it’s fair to blame Lenin for this. During the Vietnam war it was certainly the USA “in the wrong”, and while I have sympathy for any American that lost their lives fighter there, it was a war waged by the USA to protect their own imperial interests. Ultimately the North Vietnamese were fighting a war of national libertarian, against western colonial oppression. North Korea was a state established by Stalinist USSR, a state which was totally antithetical to the workers’ revolution that occurred in October 1917.
The world would have done just fine without the Soviet Union. The way Lenin ‘advanced’ history was not for the better.
What ultimately became of the USSR was awful, yes, but the Russian revolutions weren’t instigated from on high by an evil clique of Marxists. They were autonomous working-class revolutions that came as a result of the material conditions of the Russian empire. They would have happened with or without Lenin and the Bolsheviks. Lenin played a role in the Russian revolutions, but he wasn’t totally responsible for them.

If the USSR had succeeded and not degenerated into an anti-worker bureaucracy it would have been one of the greatest achievements in history.
The way I see it - as an American - is that there is “our side” and “their side”. I am never ever going to take “their side”.
Why do you feel this way? Why do you feel that all of the decisions that the USA makes are in your interest?

The North Vietnamese were fighting a war mostly for national liberation - that is, freedom from being subjugated by western nations. South Vietnam was a corrupt and broken nepotistic and anti-democratic state. It didn’t enjoy any kind of popular mandate, and the ruling clique of the country only managed to maintain their position through electoral fraud. Originally the country was supposed to be united through popular elections. These were called off, as it was clear that Ho Chi Minh and the North Vietnamese would win! The US supported this corrupt and illegitimate state and participated in a war that negatively affected the average Vietnamese person severely. There is a reason that in Vietnam the war is known as “the American War.”
Whatever the reasons “our side” was at war; the “other/their side” was backed up by the Soviet Union - Lenin’s creation. I never once asserted that those conflicts were necessary, but our soldiers (the good guys) fought against and died at the hands of Soviet weapons (supplied by and wielded by the bad guys).
Why do you think the US were the good guys? The fact is that the US state didn’t have your interests or the interests of the average American soldier at heart - it was a war fought in defense of its own imperial interests. I feel sympathy for any American soldier that was forced or tricked into suffering in Indochina for a state that did not have its interests at heart. The American soldier was the victim of the US.

You should be more critical of the USA. Just because you were born on American soil doesn’t mean the state cares about you, or has your interests at heart.
 
NO! You can not just set those massacres aside! She intentionally ordered her men to murder every man, woman, and child in the two cities. Those civilians were entirely innocent, and because she killed them Boudica is a murderer.
I think there is a difference when dealing with historical acts, in terms of what is ethical or unethical. You couldn’t go back to the Roman Empire and say that slavery is immoral - the conditions hadn’t adapted to the point were it would be possible to conceive of slavery as immoral. It was integral to the workings of daily life, an important part of their society and economy, and the conditions hadn’t yet adapted for something to replace it, such as feudal relations or wage labour. In the same way, it would be impossible to go back to feudal times and truly condemn serfdom - nobody would really understand or be able to conceive of a world without serfs, even the peasants themselves.

Slavery was good in the Roman Empire, but it’s bad now. Under feudalism, serfdom was a good thing, though it’s bad now. I imagine at some point in the future there will be a society which condemns wage labour as an evil thing.

Life was often cheap in the past and violence was probably necessary to advance historical conditions. The Reign of Terror may well have been historically necessary in overturning the Ancien Regime in France and helping to produce a society without serfdom and feudal social relations.
 
She intentionally ordered her men to murder every man, woman, and child in the two cities.
Like this?

The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God.They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him.

We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children.

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.
 
It looks like you employed one of of the logical fallacies I identified as being used whenever somebody wants to glorify a monster. You seem to be arguing that “not as bad as his enemies” and “a good person deserving of admiration” are the same thing, but they really aren’t. Murdering less people than Stalin doesn’t make Hitler a hero, so being less bad than your enemies doesn’t exonerate you.
I didn’t employ a logical fallacy that you are accusing me of using. I simply questioned whether Che Guevara was a mass murderer. No he isn’t. He gave the accused trials, and they were most likely guilty of what they were accused of. (An anti-communist strategy is to assume everyone who was executed was innocent, but they did not have much knowledge of the trials.) The tribunals were modeled on the Nuremberg trials. Less biased historians would acknowledge that most of the people executed were guilty, but the trials did not have adequate legal protections. That injustice is far different than saying that Che Guevara killed innocents.

And no, Stalin didn’t kill more people than Hitler. That is just anti-communist propaganda.
Following the triumph of the Cuban Revolution in 1959, Guevara was assigned for a time to oversee the prison at La Cabaña. His duties involved overseeing the executions of those convicted of war crimes at the prison. Because of this duty, Guevara is sometimes called the “Butcher of La Cabaña” in the Cuban ex-pat community. The revolutionary government claimed to be basing its trials for war crimes upon the international precedent set by the Nuremberg Trials. The process consisted of two tribunals, one of which tried civilians and one of which tried members of Batista’s military. Only the latter could order an execution for those convicted of war crimes. Guevara’s role, like that of governors in the United States, consisted of reviewing the verdicts, offering pardons, and setting execution dates. Guevara remained assigned to this role for several months, during which he oversaw between 55 and 105 executions.
On the popularity of the execution of war criminals, and on the role of Guevara in the process, historian Paco Ignacio Taibo II writes in Guevara, Also Known as Che,
Fidel launched a counterattack to the U.S. campaign in a speech he gave January 21 at the National Palace, comparing the crimes committed during the dictatorship with those judged at Nuremberg and asserting the people’s right to see justice done and to carry out the executions. He asked for a show of hands: was justice meted out to the torturers? According to Carlos Franqui, who was editor of Revolución at the time: “Fidel’s question was answered by an overwhelming ‘Yes!’ A private nationwide survey showed 93 percent in favor of the trials and shootings.” Che was present at the gathering, but took no part in the demonstration.
Code:
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Code:
Without a doubt Che was in favor of the summary trials, but the tales woven by Cuban exiles, in which he was the "Butcher of La Cabaña," presiding over most of the shootings in Havana, are flights of fantasy. Revolutionary Tribunals No. 1 and No. 2 did sit at La Cabaña, the first trying policemen and soldiers, the second (which did not pass death sentences) trying civilians. RT1, presided over by Miguel Ángel Duque de Estrada, did pass the death sentence in some cases, at least two dozen of which were in January. Che did not sit on either tribunal, but did review appeals in his capacity as commander. He could have had no doubts as he ratified the sentences; he believed in the justice of what he was doing and over the previous years had become very tough-minded about such situations.
On the quality of polls in Cuba at the time, Carmelo Mesa-Lago argues in “Availability and Reliability of Statistics in Socialist Cuba (Part One”) that before the Bay of Pigs (1961), they were generally free and objective. The above poll would have taken place in 1959.

Whether or not you believe Guevara was a murderer should depend upon your judgement of war and the practice of executing war criminals, rather than upon unfounded accusations that Guevara massacred innocents.

reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1lt4rb/was_it_the_truth_behind_the_critical_controversy/
This isn’t even mentioning how he traveled around Latin America founding several brutal and murderous Guerrilla groups. It’s no wonder that Cubans who actually met him describe him as a bad person.
Evidence? Anti-communist Cubans would likely call him a bad person.
NO! You can not just set those massacres aside! She intentionally ordered her men to murder every man, woman, and child in the two cities. Those civilians were entirely innocent, and because she killed them Boudica is a murderer.
There are no such things as ethical blank checks.
I wasn’t trying to rehabilitate her, but her cause was reasonable.

I sympathize with her because I could imagine what it is like to suffer and be humiliated as she has.
“‘But now,’ she said, ‘it is not as a woman descended from noble ancestry, but as one of the people that I am avenging lost freedom, my scourged body, the outraged chastity of my daughters. Roman lust has gone so far that not our very persons, nor even age or virginity, are left unpolluted. But heaven is on the side of a righteous vengeance; a legion which dared to fight has perished; the rest are hiding themselves in their camp, or are thinking anxiously of flight. They will not sustain even the din and the shout of so many thousands, much less our charge and our blows. If you weigh well the strength of the armies, and the causes of the war, you will see that in this battle you must conquer or die. This is a woman’s resolve; as for men, they may live and be slaves.’”
 
I think there is a difference when dealing with historical acts, in terms of what is ethical or unethical. You couldn’t go back to the Roman Empire and say that slavery is immoral - the conditions hadn’t adapted to the point were it would be possible to conceive of slavery as immoral. It was integral to the workings of daily life, an important part of their society and economy, and the conditions hadn’t yet adapted for something to replace it, such as feudal relations or wage labour. In the same way, it would be impossible to go back to feudal times and truly condemn serfdom - nobody would really understand or be able to conceive of a world without serfs, even the peasants themselves.

Slavery was good in the Roman Empire, but it’s bad now. Under feudalism, serfdom was a good thing, though it’s bad now. I imagine at some point in the future there will be a society which condemns wage labour as an evil thing.

Life was often cheap in the past and violence was probably necessary to advance historical conditions. The Reign of Terror may well have been historically necessary in overturning the Ancien Regime in France and helping to produce a society without serfdom and feudal social relations.
We’ll have to agree to disagree then. My argument on this thread (that people who commit atrocities should not get statues or praise) is based on the idea morality is objective regardless of culture or time period (something not dependant upon religious belief - many Secular Humanists also follow objective morality). Of course the people who build statues of Boudica aren’t saying “it was a harsher time”, they think she was just according to modern standards. But I digress.

While the debate you are bringing up (whether or not morality is objective, subjective, etc) is an interesting one to have, I think it could only be adequately explored if discussed in its own thread.

Truth be told, I don’t think the French Revolution did any good. It killed a lot of people (most of whom were innocent), replaced a King with a murderous Rebel Leader, replaced said Rebel Leader with an Emperor, and finally put the King’s brother back on the throne. It seems like a waste.
 
Like this?

The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God.They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him.

We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children.

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.
I will admit that the Hebrew conquests have disturbed and bothered me in the past and still bother me to an extent. I’m not going to pretend that it was justified or right.
 
I will admit that the Hebrew conquests have disturbed and bothered me in the past and still bother me to an extent. I’m not going to pretend that it was justified or right.
The difference being, for those of us who accept the truth of Scripture in any case, that God is sovereign over human life and gets to choose in every case how and at what point it ends. The “Exodusters” were acting in the name of God, scripturally. Full stop.

Those acting for “social change” or “national freedom” do not per se act in the name of God.

ICXC NIKA
 
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