The Name "Lutheran"

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James- I realize that you are not Lutheran as I have read many of your posts before. As I said, thank you for the link. I’m certainly not going to blame the messenger! Now to get to your question:

I stated my point in my post right before yours. If the only legitimate way to identify themselves is by the name of a man, the legitimacy of the entire endeavor is put into question. Another way to put it is, Lutherans are named for Luther because they live by his interpretation of what Christ desired not by the desires of Christ himself. The reason that I say Luther’s opinion is that he never claimed to be an apostle or prophet and said he was not directly inspired by the Holy Spirit. The author of the article said that it did not matter if Luther was a “saint or a knave”. I have asked on several different threads why Luther had the authority to speak for God. Until now, no one has answered my question. If you could share that information with me, I’m very eager to learn.
 
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Eden:
I have asked on several different threads why Luther had the authority to speak for God. Until now, no one has answered my question. If you could share that information with me, I’m very eager to learn.
Ok. Got it. A few things come to mind. First I deny “Lutherans are named for Luther because they live by his interpretation of what Christ desired not by the desires of Christ himself.” That is indeed a loaded sentence! For the sake of brevity, let’s simply leave the second thought out, and assume that Lutherans desire to live by the desire of Christ. But foremost, Lutherans (at least the one’s I know) do not follow Luther because of his interpretation(s). For the sake of brevity, let’s just limit it to the gospel and Luther’s “interpretation.”

Luther arrived at “Justification by faith alone” and so did Zwingli, probably independent of each other, (they were contemporaries). Why? Because it was taught by Paul in Romans. Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and the Reformers in general, while they disagreed on many issues, agreed on one thing: the scriptures plainly teach justification by faith alone. As Luther poured through the Greek New Testament, he saw what was written in the Bible. Luther said, “I’m not asking anyone to believe me, but I am asking men to believe the plain words of God.”

But you’re thinking, wait a minute! That’s just Luther’s interpretation! The Catholic Church gave us the Scriptures and never taught Luther’s newfound doctrine. But here’s what happened. The Church, by and large, followed Augustine’s understanding here. Alister McGrath explains:

McGrath sees Augustine’s treatment of justification as pivotal to the subsequent development of the doctrine of justification in the Roman Catholic Church: “Augustine understands the verb iustificare to mean ‘to make righteous,’ an understanding of the term which he appears to have held throughout his working life. In arriving at this understanding, he appears to have interpreted -ficare as the unstressed form of facere, by analogy with vivificare and mortificare. Although this is a permissible interpretation of the Latin word, it is unacceptable as an interpretation of the Hebrew concept which underlies it.”

Source: Faith Alone, R.C. Sproul

Along comes Luther, and with Erasmus’s Greek New Testament, scholars are able to determine the Latin translation of the Greek word for justification was incorrect. The Greek word does not mean “making righteous”, but “pronouncing righteous”. Even if Luther didn’t come along, scholars who study translating would have figured this out eventually. Thus, it’s not just Luther’s interpretation. It’s what the words mean.

Now to the heart of your question. Why does Luther think he has the right to speak for God?

First off, Luther was not an “infallible” mini-pope or whatever, so really, your question is an innacurate question. Luther never saw himself as an infallible interpreter, getting direct messages from God like a tele-evangelist.

Let’s answer this question as a Roman Catholic. Luther was ordained a Doctor of Theology via the Roman Catholic Church. He was given the right to speak for God (in terms of teaching). He was also a minister, and was ordained by the Roman Catholic Church to speak for God (in the sense of preaching).

There is some ambiguity as to what type of “heretic” Luther actually was. There was no complete dogma on the indulgence when Luther posted the 95 Theses. There was no official doctrine as to the effect of the indulgence upon Purgatory… And, there was no official doctrine of justification. Hence, Luther was not really a heretic (in official “Thus spoke Rome” terms). Remember, one is heretic when the go against official Church teaching. Trent was concluded after Luther died. Roman Catholics have always told me that until a doctrine is defined, there is freedom to debate and discuss differing opinions. Thus, Luther was given the right to preach and teach “for God” by the Roman Catholic Church.

I’m just getting warmed up, but I have to go to bed. More on this later.

Regards,
James Swan
 
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TertiumQuid:
Let’s answer this question as a Roman Catholic. Luther was ordained a Doctor of Theology via the Roman Catholic Church. He was given the right to speak for God (in terms of teaching). He was also a minister, and was ordained by the Roman Catholic Church to speak for God (in the sense of preaching).
Luther, as a member of the clergy, had the authority to speak for the Church, not for God. The Church speaks for God. When a member of the Church speaks the doctrine of the Church, they speak the doctrine of God. The Church contains within itself all sorts of sinners and knaves, and some of them obtain positions of responsibility. Paul and Christ himself warned us that there would be a few ravenous wolves among Church leaders (Acts 20:29; Matt. 7:15).

Fundamentalists suffer from the mistaken notion that the Church includes only the elect. For them, sinners are outside the doors. Locate sinners, and you locate another place where the Church is not.

Lutherans do not agree that the Church speaks for God. I’m just pointing out why, although a member of the Catholic clergy at one time, Luther himself could not claim that authority to speak for God came from his position as a former member of clergy.
 
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TertiumQuid:
Hi Corinne,

Just a minor tangent- I find many of the articles in the Catholic Encyclopedia over at New Advent useful and helpful. In regards to the “Luther” entry, I cannot say the same. American Catholics in the first half of the twentieth century were guided in their understanding of Luther by that article in the Catholic Encyclopedia written by George Ganss (1855 – 1912).Ganss was strongly influenced by Denifle, and he has been credited for bringing the views of Denifle to the English speaking world. Denifle was extremely biased and negative towards Luther as was Ganss.

Interestingly, when the New Catholic Encyclopedia came out, Ganss article was not used.

I have covered the “Luther” entry over at New Advent in this paper:

ntrmin.org/The%20Roman%20Catholic%20Understanding%20of%20Martin%20Luther%201.htm

See specifically section V.

This is not to suggest that you are incorrect in pointing out the negative names Luther called the Papacy and Roman Catholics. In his sometimes harsh languages, Luther was less than charitable and downright nasty. But, simply because he did it, is no reason for us to do it- agreed?

Regards,
James Swan
Agreed. Thank you for humbling me.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
 
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Eden:
Luther, as a member of the clergy, had the authority to speak for the Church, not for God. The Church speaks for God. When a member of the Church speaks the doctrine of the Church, they speak the doctrine of God. The Church contains within itself all sorts of sinners and knaves, and some of them obtain positions of responsibility. Paul and Christ himself warned us that there would be a few ravenous wolves among Church leaders (Acts 20:29; Matt. 7:15).
This is unnecessary quibbling. I noted that Luther was ordained a Doctor of Theology via the Roman Catholic Church. He was given the right to speak for God (in terms of teaching). He was also a minister, and was ordained by the Roman Catholic Church to speak for God (in the sense of preaching). When someone came to Luther for confession, and he pronounced “you are absolved”- who absolved them? Luther, the church, or God?

For Luther, the chief channel of bringing the Word to people was the office of the Pastor. God selects and calls specific individuals to lead His people in their gathering around the Word for their saving use of it. Luther was certain that God had singled out certain individuals for certain “horizontal” tasks. They were called to be leaders of the congregation so that the Word of God might proceed in orderly fashion.

Of course, I grant that “wolves” will be among the church leaders- recall how Athanasius has to stand against a majority of them, while he held to the truth against packs of wolves.
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Eden:
Fundamentalists suffer from the mistaken notion that the Church includes only the elect. For them, sinners are outside the doors. Locate sinners, and you locate another place where the Church is not.
Not sure why “Fundamentalists” have joined our discussion. Luther believed in one church that is visible and invisible, as do I.

Luther lists the marks in order that people will be able to identify the church. Thus, the significance is that marks are “identification” marks. He says, “But how will or how can a poor confused person tell where such Christian holy people are to be found in this world? Indeed, they are supposed to be in this life and on earth, for they of course believe that a heavenly nature and an eternal life are to come, but as yet they do not possess them.” The marks listed in On the Councils and the Church are: oral word (preached believed, professed, and lived), baptism, Lord’s Supper, confession and absolution, pastoral office, prayer (including praise, thanksgiving, and catechesis), the cross, and love.

In Against Hans Wurst, Luther gives these reasons for explaining the marks:

“It is just as if I asked a drunkard or a fool or someone half-asleep, “Tell me, friend, who or where is the church?” and he answered me, ten times over, nothing but, “One should listen to the church!” But how am I to listen to the church when I do not know who or where the church is? “Well,” they say, “we papists have remained in the ancient and original church ever since the time of the apostles. Therefore we are the true church, for we have come from the ancient church and have remained in it; but you have fallen away from us and have become a new church opposed to us.” Answer: “But what if I prove that we have remained faithful to the true ancient church, indeed, that we are the true ancient church and that you have fallen away from us, that is, the ancient church, and have set up a new church against the ancient one?” Let us hear that!”

In Against Hans Wurst Luther lists these additional marks: Apostles Creed, Lord’s Prayer, the upholding of temporal authorities, marriage, and abstinence from the persecution of the churches enemies.
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Eden:
Lutherans do not agree that the Church speaks for God. I’m just pointing out why, although a member of the Catholic clergy at one time, Luther himself could not claim that authority to speak for God came from his position as a former member of clergy.
I know what you’re pointing out, that’s why I prefaced my comments by noting I was approaching the subject from a Roman Catholic perspective. Initially, the visible church called Luther to teach and preach.

Regards,
James Swan
 
This is unnecessary quibbling.

The unnecessary quibbling is over the theology of Luther. He was not an authority chosen by the Holy Spirit to disseminate his word, he was a “false prophet” speaking “out of his head”. I see nothing in your answer above to dispute that statement. Jesus gave us **ONE **Church here on earth. It is either the Catholic Church or Luther’s Church:

**"The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822) **

Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but *one *spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.

His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant." (Piller of Fire, Pillar of Truth)

I noted that Luther was ordained a Doctor of Theology* via the Roman Catholic Church.** He was given the right to speak for God (in terms of teaching). He was also a minister, and was ordained by the Roman Catholic Church to speak for God (in the sense of preaching). When someone came to Luther for confession, and he pronounced “you are absolved”- who absolved them? Luther, the church, or God? *

He was given the right to speak for God- through the Catholic Church’s authority bestowed upon it by the Holy Spirit with “Apostolic Succession”. Luther has no authority on his own outside the Church. “Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, ‘He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me’ (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.”
Luther had no authority outside the Church as an ex-President has no authority outside the office of the presidency.

When Luther rejected the Church, he rejected the authority to administer Penance from the Holy Spirit. "Jesus gave his apostles power and authority to reconcile us to the Father. They received Jesus’ own power to forgive sins when he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained’(John 20:22–23).

Paul notes that ‘all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation. . . . So, we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us’ (2 Cor. 5:18–20). Through confession to a priest, God’s minister, we have our sins forgiven, and we receive grace to help us resist future temptations." (Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth)

*For Luther, the chief channel of bringing the Word to people was the office of the Pastor. God selects and calls specific individuals to lead His people in their gathering around the Word for their saving use of it. *Luther was certain that God had singled out certain individuals for certain “horizontal” tasks. They were called to be leaders of the congregation so that the Word of God might proceed in orderly fashion.

Orderly fashion? What about the 30K+ Churches who broke away from the Catholic Church reflects “order”? Again this is one man’s interpretation of God’s design and he has no established authority to speak for the Holy Spirit. He is again “speaking out of his own head”.

Of course, I grant that “wolves” will be among the church leaders- recall how Athanasius has to stand against a majority of them, while he held to the truth against packs of wolves.

St. Athanasius is among many who preserved the “deposit of faith” during the heretical rise of Arianism. Jesus told us he would protect his Church (his bride) until the Second Coming and he has. Luther was a “wolf” among the clergy.
 
(CONT’D)

Not sure why “Fundamentalists” have joined our discussion. Luther believed in one church that is visible and invisible, as do I.

Fundamentalists are just one more off-shoot of the off-shoot known as “Lutheran”. Jesus referred to His ONE Church as his bride. His bride is the Church on earth. What is that ONE Church? “The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls ‘the pillar and foundation of truth’ (1 Tim. 3:15).” (Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth)

Luther lists the marks in order that people will be able to identify the church.

These are Luther’s marks “out of his head”. “If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.” (Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth) catholic.com/library/pillar.asp

Quibbling? You have not established Luther’s authority to speak for the Holy Spirit. You have not answered my statement that the idea of “universal truth” is in direct opposition to Jesus’ own design of authority in His Church. The only quibbling I see is in discussing the details of one man’s theology which came “out of his head”.
 
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Eden:
Quibbling? You have not established Luther’s authority to speak for the Holy Spirit. You have not answered my statement that the idea of “universal truth” is in direct opposition to Jesus’ own design of authority in His Church. The only quibbling I see is in discussing the details of one man’s theology which came “out of his head”.
Hi Eden-

Will get to this eventually- I appreciate Your desire to converse. I am enjoying first evaluating those quotes that Malachi4U posted. Call it a “hobby”.

Regards,
James Swan
 
Hi! I found this interesting.
Decet Romanum:
III. Our purpose is that such men should rightfully be ranked with Martin and other accursed heretics and excommunicates, and that even as they have ranged themselves with the obstinacy in sinning of the said Martin, they shall likewise share his punishments and his name, by bearing with them everywhere the title “Lutheran” and the punishments it incurs.
That is from the Papal Bull that allegedly excommunicated Martin Luther.

The Pontiff joined in in dubbing Lutherans “Lutherans.” It sounds like it doesn’t matter what we call ourselves, or if we call ourselves anything at all. To the Pope, apparently, we are “Lutherans.”
 
I don’t see any reason they can’t vote on it if it bothers them that Luther might not like it. They could call themselves “The Wittenberg Denomination” or something that reflects Luther’s main points or their history, or “The First Protestant Church” or whatever they like. But there are different groups of Lutherans today so there would have to be many votes and perhaps it would just become too confusing.🤷
What does set Lutherans apart?
 
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