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Dismas2004
Guest
What do you think is the most pressing concern for our Church today in the realm of evangelization?
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JRKH
Guest
I voted formation because that is the one thing that I keep hearing from converts. The fact that, for years, they had never met a catholic who could adequately defend their faith.
Scandals are things that go on everywhare and they pass.
Not sure what yo mean by culture
Peace
James
Scandals are things that go on everywhare and they pass.
Not sure what yo mean by culture
Peace
James
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lizaanne
Guest
ABSOLUTELY Lack of Formation!!
If all Catholics truly knew their Faith and practiced it FULLY - there would be none of these other issues.
~Liza
If all Catholics truly knew their Faith and practiced it FULLY - there would be none of these other issues.
~Liza
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idrum677
Guest
You and Fr. Corapi have it right!
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Dismas2004
Guest
By culture - I mean the current wave of thought if you will. For example, in our current culture it is right and true to be relativistic, individualistic, and anti-authority. We live in a time where tolerance trumps Truth. Advertising, the media, and mega churches sway people in the ways they want them swayed. Catholic is a bad word or at least something you don’t want to admit. That’s what I mean by culture in a non-exhaustive nutshell.
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quiet52
Guest
We need effective formation within our parishes and dioceses to help Catholics develop the understanding and ammunition to become counter-cultural. How can we gird our loins with righteousness if we’re not taught how to live it / defend it / fight for it within our families, communities, and larger society?
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JRKH
Guest
Thank you for the clarification.
I see now that it would not have changed my vote.
Formation, clarity of understanding and a firmness of faith are the things needed to resist the “culture”
Peace
James
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
I think that every parent that brings their child in to be signed up for Faith Formation should be given a 100 question test. That test chould cover Sacraments, Church History, The Bible, Morals, Liturgy and Prayer, The contents of the Creed, Religious Orders and Saints, Fathers, Etc. any parent that gets an 80 or less must also sign up for the adult Faith Formation class, or they cannot sign their child up. Any parent who received 80-90 must sign up as a Catechist assistant, any parent who receives 90-100 must sign up as a Catechist! Without the parents knowing the Catholic Faith very well, we accomplish little by teaching their children the Faith.
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jc-servant
Guest
The problem with your proposal is that the same people who did not bother to learn the faith for themselves will be too lazy or resistant to learn it for their children. The children will not get to go learn anything and the ignorance continues to the next generation.
We may have to forget about teaching many of the poorly formed adults through the Church directly. I’ve seen many reached through their children who came home and corrected, challenged and informed the parents enough to spark their interest in learning the faith too.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
We have been doing just that for the last 30 years, focusing on teaching children. It has not provided any real results.
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JRKH
Guest
The proposal is a good one, if it would work, however it is simply not practical, mainly for the reasons already stated.
As to the problems of the poor catechisis of children, I believe that it can be laid at the doorstep of confusion after Vat II, and the progressiviesm that was rampant throughout the church at that time. (at least in the US).
Years ago, in the primary grades we learned from the Baltimore Catechism. Then religion class continued with churhc history, the saints etc. Little or none of it had to do with trying to understand other faiths, or which baptisms were valid and which were not.
Once the more liberal elements got involved, Baltimore Catechism was dropped, ecumenism was emphasized with a very real loss of identity for “Catholic” youth as opposed to any other “Christian” youth.
The great efforts by the last two popes to clarify, codify, and regain our “sense of self” as Catholics has gone a long way toward redressing some of this. the new catechism is available, but I would like to see it put into a simple question/answer format for use in teaching small children.
It is important for us as Catholics to realize that, while reaching out to our seperated bretheren in a spirit of ecumenism, we must not lose sight of the fact that we have the fullness of faith and truth. Everything that the Non-Catholic Chriatian churches have they recieved from us. But each has only a part. We have the fullness here. This needs to be taught from the pulpits, the religion classes, and lived in our everyday life.
Peace
James
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Joannm
Guest
The problem is, that the children might go home and tell their parents what they have learned, but if it is not reinforced by the parents in the home then it will be quickly forgotton. I have even had parents tell me that “how dare I tell their child it is a sin to miss mass…no one has the right to tell me I must go to Mass.” DUH…then why are you Catholic? We had parents call in to complain that their children were telling them the host is Jesus, or that we can’t eat meat on Fridays during Lent. We have parents refusing to let their child go to confession because “children cannot sin.” How do you deal with situations like this? I am all for mandatory parent education and for mandatory Mass attendace while the kids are in Religious Ed. As it is now the kids never go to Mass, confession or get any reinforcement from home.
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JRKH
Guest
When they complain, explain to them that you are teaching their children the Doctrine of the Catholic faith as defined by the Church in Rome and documented in the Catechism. Then offer to meet with them to review the appropriate sections of the CCC so that they will understand.
If they remain obstinate you may want to talk to the pastor about his having a chat with them to emphasize how important it is that they understand their faith and that they reinforce this teaching with their children.
Peace
James
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Dismas2004
Guest
I just casted my vote - Culture. I thank all who have posted already and hope that more cast their votes and the discussion continues.
I believe the most pressing issue is our culture. It is our culture that has allowed for the conditions for our Bishops to act as they do, or fail to act. It is our culture that has lead us away from formation.
Spending time as a family, speaking and sharing the truth of Christ and His church, these are all things that people look at as weird, foreign.
Formation - by just giving answers to questions - is mere intellectual exercise. Our faith can not be reduced to a test. Criminals know what they are doing is wrong, they do it anyway. Just as Paul says in the scriptures. It is because we are weak, we lack virtues. Formation on the level of the mind is doomed to fail without formation of the heart as well. Sending kids to have talks with the clergy fails as well, they do not adhere to that. If they did, we would not me in the vocations crisis we are in now. People respond to virtue, to example. Why do you think movies such as Braveheart, the Patriot, and the Passion are so popular (sorry for all Mel Gibson references)? It is because they show the depths of sin and the heights of virtues.
Scandals will come and go, they should not shake our faith, nor should they be condoned by the community. Likewise, a backlash should not be a part of the response. We are called to Virtue, to put our trust in God, not the media, not in our own talents, nor in our government. Our God is the true God, we but need to show up, adore, and obey.
I believe the most pressing issue is our culture. It is our culture that has allowed for the conditions for our Bishops to act as they do, or fail to act. It is our culture that has lead us away from formation.
Spending time as a family, speaking and sharing the truth of Christ and His church, these are all things that people look at as weird, foreign.
Formation - by just giving answers to questions - is mere intellectual exercise. Our faith can not be reduced to a test. Criminals know what they are doing is wrong, they do it anyway. Just as Paul says in the scriptures. It is because we are weak, we lack virtues. Formation on the level of the mind is doomed to fail without formation of the heart as well. Sending kids to have talks with the clergy fails as well, they do not adhere to that. If they did, we would not me in the vocations crisis we are in now. People respond to virtue, to example. Why do you think movies such as Braveheart, the Patriot, and the Passion are so popular (sorry for all Mel Gibson references)? It is because they show the depths of sin and the heights of virtues.
Scandals will come and go, they should not shake our faith, nor should they be condoned by the community. Likewise, a backlash should not be a part of the response. We are called to Virtue, to put our trust in God, not the media, not in our own talents, nor in our government. Our God is the true God, we but need to show up, adore, and obey.
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JRKH
Guest
Although this could become a chicken-egg discussion, I voted formation.
The reson is simple. Culture is a result of poor formation. The lessening of the importance of family, the weakening of the idea of responsibility, poor spiritual formation, the blurring of the line between right an wrong, these are the things that have led to the present culture in the US.
If we are to re-evangelize the nation, to recapture the idea of pride of self, of family, of faith, of honor, then we must begin by building a solid foundation of spiritual formation. Thus we must begin in the schools, from the pulpit, and in the home to build a new generation of faithful. To live and preach the pass on to our children, the values that correct the cultural problems.
We cannot correct the culture unless we have a clear, and well understood plan for where the culture needs to be and what values it needs to live by. This cannot be done until a large enough group of people can be convinced, or trained to espouse these values.
Peace
James
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Dismas2004
Guest
James,
I agree partly. However, The council of Trent answered every objection Protestants have, yet they flourish. It’s not a matter of values. People have values, they know what they are doing is wrong. St. Paul says he does what he knows is wrong, and then asks for God’s grace to live the way Christ has called him to. When we sin, we know we are sinning (for the most part) at least at the beginning until we get so depraved as to not know the difference between the two. But here too, mere intellectual formation will not help, because we will then know what we are not to do but do it anyway because we are weak.
We must evangelize with words and deeds. Deeds first, then words. We must build up a culture of virtue and teach right from wrong as well. But first and foremost is living the virtues and passing them on. This is what JPII envisioned for the New Evangelization. Our current state of affairs didn’t come from not passing on the catechism, it came from failing to live it and pass it on. We no longer cared if someone didn’t agree with us, we didn’t want to infringe upon them. The truth however is never burdensome. If we live the truth, people will see and be attracted.
One of the problems I see in our culture is a lack of virtue amongst our religious and faithful. Sure, they know the faith - but the fail to pay heed to the demands of it. How many of us can say that we only passed on God’s love to us and through us only a few times a day?
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JRKH
Guest
I agree with what you are saying here in principal, but not in practice. I maintain that it is a matter of values. It is a matter of which values. Yes society today has values, but what are they. Are they values of faith, and of hope in God and the Future? Or are they values of greed, and shortsighted pleasure?
Yes many people do instinctively know that what they are doing is wrong, but too often the yardstick in society is whether they get caught. As a small example, how many times have we heard someone complain about getting a traffic ticket and they blame the officer for catching them rather than themselves for speeding.
As to the “thriving protestants”, I don’t see them as thriving. The reason is simple. The protestant movement never intended the proliferation of sects that have developed. While there are a great many protestants in the world, and a great many protestant churches, they cannot hold themselves together because they have no authority and without that, the individual units cannot survive long so new variations spring up in their place. Even the old established Protestant Churches are now splitting apart because they are planted among the rocks and on the roadbeds and cannot sustain themselves against the trampling of passing modern fads.
Yes Yes Yes!! We must live out the virtues and pass them on. However, due to the poor formation of the faithful over the last 30 plus years, we have a generation of faithful who have a weak understanding of what those virtues are. So where you say that, “first and foremost is living the virtues and passing them on”, I say that first and foremost is making sure that the virtues we are living and passing on are the right ones. (chicken-egg).
Absolutely no argument here. We are all sinners and fall short. Let us all go forth today and shine our light into the world. Let us do it lovingly and with God’s grace.
Peace
James
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puzzleannie
Guest
I would add to lack of faith formation, refusal to commit to the baptismal command to share the gospel, which we all received at our baptism. Those who do receive good faith formation keep it to themselves and do not share. The list of excuses for failure is a mile long, so I like Bros idea, if you pass the test, you must serve as a catechist.
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GoneFishin
Guest
I voted culture. I think our culture at least the “New culture” has lost the ways of the Old Church and have been introduced to New Protestant ways of worship and praise. They dont know what Mass means, let alone the meaning of their faith and how to defend it. I could be wrong?
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