The Papacy and the Patriarchate (split)

[Apotheoun]

All well and good sir.

. . .

Also, are you saying that EC adherence to the papal dogmas in faith, the basis of their union with Rome, is NOT a Latinization?
. . .

Whenever you’re ready ,

Alex

The papacy is a human creation that arose historically over time, which is why there can be no dogmas in connection with it.

Rome’s primacy, like the authority of the other Patriarchates, was a creation of the ecumenical councils, which is why I reject any notion that the papacy is a divinely revealed thing. The ecumenical councils gave Rome primacy within the Church for the good ordering of ecclesial affairs. The ecumenical councils also raised Jerusalem and Constantinople to Patriarchal dignity, and both things (i.e., the bestowal of primacy on Rome, and raising other sees to Patriarchal dignity) were within the proper scope of the authority of the ecumenical synods.

 

[The_Monk]

The papacy is a human creation that arose historically over time, which is why there can be no dogmas in connection with it.

Rome’s primacy, like the authority of the other Patriarchates, was a creation of the ecumenical councils, which is why I reject any notion that the papacy is a divinely revealed thing. The ecumenical councils gave Rome primacy within the Church for the good ordering of ecclesial affairs. The ecumenical councils also raised Jerusalem and Constantinople to Patriarchal dignity, and both things (i.e., the bestowal of primacy on Rome, and raising other sees to Patriarchal dignity) were within the proper scope of the authority of the ecumenical synods.

That’s a strange way of calling oneself catholic. The Papacy came from Our Lord’s entrusting St. Peter with the Keys of the Kingdom. What council created the Papacy? Also what ecumenical council taught the “uncreated energies of God” as taught by Gregory Palmas?

 

[smad0142]

Apotheoun;7882660*:

The papacy is a human creation

that arose historically over time, which is why there can be no dogmas in connection with it.

Rome’s primacy, like the authority of the other Patriarchates, was a creation of the ecumenical councils, which is why I reject any notion that the papacy is a divinely revealed thing. The ecumenical councils gave Rome primacy within the Church for the good ordering of ecclesial affairs. The ecumenical councils also raised Jerusalem and Constantinople to Patriarchal dignity, and both things (i.e., the bestowal of primacy on Rome, and raising other sees to Patriarchal dignity) were within the proper scope of the authority of the ecumenical synods.

Even the Orthodox priests and laity I know don’t believe that. From what I can tell Catholics and Orthodox believe in the petrine charism given to us by Christ, the dispute arises over the rights, powers, and limits of that charism. And can you show me where the Ecumenical Councils gave Rome primacy as opposed to recognizing it?

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Dear Smad,

Very good point about Rome’s primacy being only recognized!

In fact, the UGCC feels the same way about its patriarchate - we just want it to be recognized!

Good job, Big Guy!

Alex

 

[smad0142]

Alex,

From one UGCC to another, I agree. While I think the patriarchate is a man-made honor, if anyone should be “recognized” and not given such status it is the UGCC. It is the single largest ECC and it has given so many witnesses, especially recently the martyrs, to the Faith. And in the home country where many private Latin devotions are optional, it shows a strength in indentity and a willingness to breath from the Church’s Lungs East AND West (the West part being a lung many EC ignore)!

 

[Formosus]

Not to side track this thread further, I do not see why the institution of the patriarchate is not of divine origin. The decrees of ecumenical councils are inspired by the Holy Spirit. So those canons which establish patriarchates are of just as much divine origin as the papacy.

 

[smad0142]

Not to side track this thread further, I do not see why the institution of the patriarchate is not of divine origin. The decrees of ecumenical councils are inspired by the Holy Spirit. So those canons which establish patriarchates are of just as much divine origin as the papacy.

Formous,

Not every act of an Ecumenical Council is infallible. Only those pertaining to Faith and Morals are guranteed the protection of the Holy Spirit, and these only when the Council expressly says that this is a definitive teaching of the Faith. Other acts of the Council are surely very important, because the whole of the Church’s episcopate united with the Head of the Apostolic College, the Pope, have agreed to whatever those acts might be. While these other acts are very important and deserve a lot of respect, they are not infallible or necessairily of divine origin.

Since the Patriarchate is not in Holy Scriptures or handed down to us from Apostolic/Sacred Tradition, we can be sure it is not a necessary part of the Faith.

 

[ciero]

Formous,

Not every act of an Ecumenical Council is infallible. Only those pertaining to Faith and Morals are guranteed the protection of the Holy Spirit, and these only when the Council expressly says that this is a definitive teaching of the Faith. Other acts of the Council are surely very important, because the whole of the Church’s episcopate united with the Head of the Apostolic College, the Pope, have agreed to whatever those acts might be. While these other acts are very important and deserve a lot of respect, they are not infallible or necessairily of divine origin.

Since the Patriarchate is not in Holy Scriptures or handed down to us from Apostolic/Sacred Tradition, we can be sure it is not a necessary part of the Faith.

Same as the papacy? At least as we have it today in 2011?

 

[Formosus]

How is the patriarchate not part of Apostolic tradition? Peter established the patriarchate of Antioch and Alexandria.

Further, the episcopacy as it exists today does not really exist in sacred scripture and did not develop until around the time of Ignatios, so is that also not of divine origin ?

 

[smad0142]

How is the patriarchate not part of Apostolic tradition? Peter established the patriarchate of Antioch and Alexandria.

Further, the episcopacy as it exists today does not really exist in sacred scripture and did not develop until around the time of Ignatios, so is that also not of divine origin ?

No St. Peter established the Sees at Antioch and Alexandria. They were elevated to patriarchal status much later. And just because an Apostle did something, even Peter, does not make it a divine part of the Faith. For example the Didache gives liturgical instructions that, to the best of my knowledge, none of the Churches follow anymore. That is the whole point between Faith and Morals being infallible and everything else being venerable.

And I will grant to you and Ciero that much of the Papacy and Episcopate of today is not the same as back then, but still both offices are of clearly divine origin. The question, especially between the Catholics and Orthodox, and the inherent limits and rights of each office.