The Permissibility of Asking God to Change Objective Moral Rules

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If it is believed by Christians and Catholics that God exists and that He is the source of objective morality, and that therefore, humans ought not to disobey this supernaturally ordained moral law, has there ever been a philosopher or group of them in the history of the Catholic Church or the world who have asked this question:

Is it possible and/or morally permissible to ask God to change some rules in the objective moral law? Or is this idea against Christian/Catholic doctrine and therefore heretical?

This question is assuming that objective morality is truly objective in that it is not just supernaturally ordained, but also self-evident in science and human nature, and therefore transcendent of human subjectivity in this manner, yet is not truly morally binding unless this moral law has someone to be in charge of it, who would be God.

Has there ever been an intellectual debate or philosophical event in the history of Christianity regarding this question?
 
Well after 2 thousand years and a multitude of Theologians (many who are Doctors of the Church AND Saints) who have pondered and mused on the question of GOD, what we have is that: GOD does not change.
So the question is moot.

Peace!
 
Galexus said:
Is it possible and/or morally permissible to ask God to change some rules in the objective moral law? Or is this idea against Christian/Catholic doctrine and therefore heretical?
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It is inadmissible.
 
Galexus said:
If it is believed by Christians and Catholics that God exists and that He is the source of objective morality, and that therefore, humans ought not to disobey this supernaturally ordained moral law, has there ever been a philosopher or group of them in the history of the Catholic Church or the world who have asked this question:

Is it possible and/or morally permissible to ask God to change some rules in the objective moral law? Or is this idea against Christian/Catholic doctrine and therefore heretical?

This question is assuming that objective morality is truly objective in that it is not just supernaturally ordained, but also self-evident in science and human nature, and therefore transcendent of human subjectivity in this manner, yet is not truly morally binding unless this moral law has someone to be in charge of it, who would be God.

Has there ever been an intellectual debate or philosophical event in the history of Christianity regarding this question?
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I’d say that any ‘objective’ moral rule is someone’s interpretation of God’s will. Perhaps what you could ask God is for some clarification that it has been interpreted correctly.
 
I think it’s laudable to ask God anything you want! I’m sure he loves to hear from you! But he can’t change moral law because he didn’t “make it up.” This said, you might want to talk with a moral theologian to understand moral law better. When it comes to sin there can be circumstances that reduce culpability for example. Would it help you to gain a better picture of those circumstances? But when a question starts with “is it okay to ask God…” I’d always say yes - talk to him about anything on your heart!
 
Hi friend! Welcome to the forum!

As others have said, an unspoken premise in your question seems to be that the moral law is something God has ‘made up’ to be one way – but could equally make up to be a different way.

Whereas that’s not really the Catholic view.

I think a more common way this question gets asked in philosophy classes is something like:

“Is something right only because God says so, and He could say the opposite tomorrow and then that thing would be wrong? Or does God say something’s right because it it is, and it’d be right even if God said otherwise?”

And it’s a funny question because my understanding is that the answer is sort of : Neither.

Or at least, there’s a hidden problem buried in both positions. And the way around the problems winds up at a third position something like (I don’t know the formal philosophical jargon myself): the moral law derives from God’s unchanging nature itself. So He couldn’t make it otherwise since His nature is perfect and unchanging as-is – and nor is He pointing outside Himself for the standard. He is the standard, and that’s why He cannot change the standard. He can only tell us about it. He can only tell us the truth (and He Himself is the Truth (and the Way and the Life).
 
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Thank you very much for your post, Jen.
I agree wholeheartedly with you that we should not hesitate to talk to God/Jesus about anything at all in our heart and talk from our heart. He knows our heart anyway! No use at all to tell Him fibs. 😉

Were I in some sort of difficulty about some aspect of Faith or Morals and wished it could change, I would put that to The Lord and ask that He either change it somehow, granting me patience until He does, or that He conform my heart to what is taught in Faith or Morals that I find difficult - and again ask for patience and the gift of obedience:
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St Paul in explaining the qualities of Love, first states “patience”.
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I am not disturbed that I often fail in St Paul’s statement of the qualities of Love, above. I do ask The Lord to help me do better in His Time, His Way - and always if it is His Will.
The thing about failures is that failures can teach humility and reveal to me that I am not who I might think I am - or wished I was. Failure can reveal to me who I am. It was St Teresa of Avila who said that one should never leave self knowledge.

"Self knowledge is so important that, even if you were raised right up to the heavens, I should like you never to relax your cultivation of it; so long as we are on this earth, nothing matters more to us than humility. "(St. Teresa of Avila, Interior Castle )

Reading anecdotes from religious life, most all have found obedience the most difficult. I think that we can too - out here in laity-land!
 
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Galexus said:
Is it possible and/or morally permissible to ask God to change some rules in the objective moral law? Or is this idea against Christian/Catholic doctrine and therefore heretical?
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I think these questions are answered in paragraphs 65-67 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, entitled, “God has said everything in His Word” and “There will be no further Revelation.”
 
I’m not sure the question is one of permissibility as it is a question of uselessness.

Catholicism posits it’s moral teachings are handed down for our own good.

Would you ask a doctor permission to drink a tumbler full of bleach?
Would you think the doctor was “mean” if she said “no”?
 
👍 This!

The phrase “asking God to change” just strikes me as an absurd proposition. It’s like saying “ask God to make purple red”, ya know?
 
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I think one can be fully obedient to The Church but have questions etc. The nun in college who taught me said that a thousand difficulties cannot constitute one doubt. And back then, I was full of difficulties. A priest back then asked me why I then now believed in Jesus and I replied that I read that a Roman historian recorded that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified in Jerusalem yesterday. “So a pagan brought you to Jesus”. Father said. Nowadays I would reply that gold is found wherever it is found. The Holy Spirit is not a snob and works where He works.

If I have difficulties no matter what they might be, one sure can share them with The Lord with great confidence in prayer no matter content. After all again, He knows our hearts and minds better than we do. We can ask Him to clear up our difficulties whichever way. The important thing always with petitions is “Not my will, but Thine be done”. To that point can be quite a journey perhaps over a lifetime. The Lord knows our problems and difficulties with understanding, compassion and Infinite Mercy…“take up your cross and follow Me”…and…“Learn from Me, for I am meek and humble of heart”.

To be obedient to The Church despite even many difficulties is not easy to put it mildly - far easier to be obedient if we have no problems or difficulties with the obedience. And that latter person needs to be empathetic towards the former. Walk in their shoes for a bit through having an ear that can hear. “Listen, you that have ears to hear”. And if I fail in obedience of my own volition, one ideally will repent and go to Confession if necessary (not all failures in obedience are mortal sins) with a firm purpose of amendment. That does not mean that I will succeed, perhaps despite all my efforts I discover I cannot amend. And that can be quite distressing.

Keep going to Confession and seek wise and holy spiritual advice either in the confessional or outside of it…
Take care…“My Peace I give to you” …not will give or shall give, not might give. We already have His Peace already “I give” (i.e. He speaks to our now)and only the person can abandon it. His Peace remains for the person to invest in it as present now to him or her, for it is. It is a terrible thing to try to, or work towards, robbing a soul of its Peace. Indeed - who are we to judge “judge not that you be not judged”
We are ALL sinners and differ only in kind. Why is my sin less serious than another’s! “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.
My tuppence worth.
Peace and Joy

Scarlett_nidiyilii]:
I’m not sure the question is one of permissibility as it is a question of uselessness.
*> Catholicism posits it’s moral teachings are handed down for our own good.
Would you ask a doctor permission to drink a tumbler full of bleach?
> Would you think the doctor was “mean” if she said “no”?

Very true, providing the person knows it is bleach and the result of drinking it.
I would think that the doctor would reply “Do you understand you are asking to drink bleach and know what drinking bleach would do to you?” or similar.
 
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Not everyone grasps that the Moral Law for example flows from The Nature of God and He is unchangeable - our Moral Law is likewise: unchangeable.
We are all journeying and all moving towards God who is Ultimate Truth and Reality. We are all probably in different places on that journey. The Lord understands and respects that. In my book, I am called to do likewise if I can. The Mercy I have received is the Mercy I then owe to others.

G.K. Chesterton: “We do not really want a religion that is right where we are right. What we want is a religion that is right where we are wrong.”

I wonder if it is really what we want, or rather, that it is indeed, what we need?
 
There are at least two questions here. Can God change the moral law? & Can our understanding of the moral law change?

Most people have answered the first question. If that is your question, you have your answer. If you ask God to change what you know is part of the moral law, God does not do that.

The more difficult question is How do I know what is part of the unchangeable moral law? Of course there is the Church’s teaching, which should a sure guide. Every time you choose something, the moral law is applied to a particular action, and there is a chance your understanding of the law will change.

If someone believed that the moral law says that some people are less valuable than others, they may encounter a situation where this does not apply. A slave owner may fall in love with a slave. A righteous person may recognize the dignity of a sinner. A Christian may learn from a pagan. These situations should move a person toward a recognition that slaves, sinners, pagans each have a singular dignity that must be upheld. The moral law does not change, but your understanding of it does.

Romeo and Juliet is an example of something like this. It is not the moral law, but the custom of the families that Montagues hate Capulets. In the particular instance, a Montague loves a Capulet and it raises questions about the prevailing custom. Juliet’s Wherefores question the custom in light of the experience.

The moral law should be on a firmer footing than that, but it is still possible to encounter situations like that. Change, in the form of a deeper understanding of God’s law, is hoped for, and can certainly be asked for. It is important to go to God and ask for guidance so that you can understand the law and how to live with it.
 
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Catholic Catechism
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a1.htm
1952 There are different expressions of the moral law, all of them interrelated: eternal law - the source, in God, of all law; natural law; revealed law, comprising the Old Law and the New Law, or Law of the Gospel; finally, civil and ecclesiastical laws.

1953 - The moral law finds its fullness and its unity in Christ. Jesus Christ is in person the way of perfection. He is the end of the law, for only he teaches and bestows the justice of God: "For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified."4

It was St James who wrote " You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith without works and I will show you my Faith by my works"
Dovekin said:
It is important to go to God and ask for guidance so that you can understand the law and how to live with it.
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Well said! :+1:t5:
 
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Galexus said:
This question is assuming that objective morality is truly objective in that it is not just supernaturally ordained, but also self-evident in science and human nature, and therefore transcendent of human subjectivity in this manner, yet is not truly morally binding unless this moral law has someone to be in charge of it, who would be God.
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Who created the universe and humanity? If God is the one who created and designed his creation for a purpose, then he is the one who determines how nature is intended to function, and therefore determines good and bad, moral and immoral. In other words, you cannot divorce moral law from God’s role as creator.
 
Gorgias said:
👍 This!

The phrase “asking God to change” just strikes me as an absurd proposition. It’s like saying “ask God to make purple red”, ya know?
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It’s interesting that you should use this example. Different cultures have different words for colors, and there are studies that show that these linguistic differences actually affect the viewer’s perception. “Purple” is a historically ambiguous name for different colors, some of which are more red, and some of which are more blue. When referring to liturgical colors, I try to use “violet” as a better-defined color.

So if it may please God, he can make purple reddish depending on who’s speaking.
 
I agree with your post in the main.

Matters regarding Catholic Moral Law can indeed change subject to caveat or provisions. What follows is from Vatican II, not changing the Moral Law, but the disciplines relating to it - i.e. disciplinary law which comes under ecclesiastical law:
Vatican Website: Congreg. Doctrine of the Faith “Instruction on Mixed Marriages”
“Indeed, in the present circumstances, the relations between Catholics and non-Catholics are much more frequent, their habits are more closely aligned, and their customs are more similar, such that friendship between them arises much more easily, leading to more frequent occasions of mixed marriage as experience has shown.” …
…“Furthermore, it cannot be ignored in this regard that Catholics must take into account what has been solemnly defined in the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council through the Decree “ de Oecumenismo ,” in the course of conduct with our brethren separated from the Catholic Church. This new discipline suggests that the severity of the present legislation be attenuated with respect to mixed marriage, not in regards divine law, but in relation to the ecclesiastical norms that our separated brethren sometimes consider offensive.”
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Our Church has evolved to be very complex certainly to the ordinary person ‘in the pews’. Most do not read Vatican Documents, rather they take onboard the opinions of others rather than reading sound source material from the internet e.g. to form their own opinion(s). Personally I do not hold them responsible. Modern day life is terribly stressful in the secular field alone. Most to many cannot distinguish between the three types of Moral Law and related matters that can or cannot be changed. Many do not understand the three types of Moral Law.

Some to many out here in the laity do not have computers. Not only that, some to many Catholics nowadays can abandon The Church because they just cannot understand what is happening and it is all too confusing for them. Here in Sth Australia most all group gatherings for adult education etc. cost - and these are very expensive most especially to the poor. I certainly cannot afford them and I am regarded below poverty. Certainly it is most always stated that one can negotiate over the fee - after a while it becomes very embarrassing to always plead poor as true as it might be. and many avoid it. It can become a question of one’s dignity and self esteem.
It seems to me that The Church can presume that all have computers, motor cars and telephones along with a bank balance, while some do not. In my previous suburb and beset by probably every social problem that exists, many to most did not have one or more of computers, cars or telephones. Most all of my neighbours lived hand to mouth - even not having sufficient funds for that even.

I think that The Church can be leaving a group within the poor (most especially but not only) behind.
 
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Thank you for all the responses guys. To clarify, I do not have any faith crisis with God or His moral law; I just thought of this question a week or two ago and it seemed convincing, so I wanted to get some answers. The immutability of God is an interesting and powerful doctrine that the Catholic Church holds.
 
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