The phrase "our sacrifice" at Mass

[japhy]

Extremist Reactioanry Dicta: I suspect that it’s typical manipulative, sleight of hand. When “my and yours sacrifice” is changed to “our sacrifice,” translation of the liturgy is being used to drill a particular ecclesiology into us.

Well, they did it in other places too. They simply dropped the word sanctae from the translation: right now we say “for the good of all his Church” but soon we’ll say “for the good of all his holy Church”.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Actually, if memory serves, there is another meaning to the text which has yet to be mentioned, and if I am not mistaken has been implicitly denied by some of the responses, and that is that, while there is a profound, indeed even ontological difference between the ministerial priesthood and the common priesthood, there is indeed some sense in which the people are considered to offer the Sacrifice, that of Christ, through the hands of the priest.

Cardinal Arinze mentions this, for example, in his book Celebrating the Holy Eucharist:

The common priesthood of all the baptized gives people the capacity to offer Christian worship, to offer Christ to the Eternal Father through the hands of the ordained priest at the Eucharistic celebration, to receive the sacraments, and to live holy lives, and by self-denial and active charity to make of their entire lives a sacrifice.

Sacrosantcum Concilium also makes mention of this in paragraph 48. I will offer several translations, as there are several different ones available and the precise wording here will be critical. First, from the Austin Flannery translation:

Offering the Immaculate Victiom, not only through the hands of the priest but also together with him, they should learn to offer themselves.

Here is the translation provided by the USCCB in an document about Sacrosanctum Concilium:

they should learn to offer themselves as they offer the immaculate victim – not just through the hands of the priest, but also they themselves making the offering together with him

Here is the translation at the Vatican’s website:

by offering the Immaculate Victim, not only through the hands of the priest, but also with him, they should learn also to offer themselves;

and finally, the Latin:

immaculatam hostiam, non tantum per sacerdotis manus, sed etiam una cum ipso offerentes, seipsos offerre discan

Hopefully someone who knows Latin well can give a clarification as to precisely what this means.

In any case, I am certain I have seen this same concept elsewhere. I must be going now, but I will continue to search for the citations I am thinking of.

God bless

 

[Lazerlike42]

Oh, good. AmbroseSJ came up with some of the other stuff I was looking for. Cool!

 

[Joannm]

Not necessarily. The words to the ordinary of the Mass have been approved by both the bishops and by Rome.

A local bishop may authorize a priest to begin introducing the new texts without abuse.

Plus he is not really changing the words as those are the words in Latin and also in Italian…and since he has been living in Rome for over 2 1/2 years he is used to praying that.

 

[japhy]

Plus he is not really changing the words as those are the words in Latin and also in Italian…and since he has been living in Rome for over 2 1/2 years he is used to praying that.

He can say the Latin or Italian words if he wants, but right now, the only English translation he’s permitted to use says “our sacrifice”.

 

[Brendan]

You are mistaken. The complete translation is still in the hands of the USCCB and has yet to be submitted to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for its recognitio.
[/INDENT]

No, you are incorrect. The Common of the Mass ( the parts that are said at every Mass, every day) have already been submitted to, and approved by, Rome

WASHINGTON— The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has receivedapproval (recognitio) from the Holy See’s Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for the new English-language translation of the Order of Mass (Ordo Missae).

usccb.org/comm/archives/2008/08-108.shtml

The part that is was recently approved by the USCCB are the parts that very by each day, the Preface and Collects, for example.

But the part that is under discussion ( “my sacrifice and yours”) has already been approved (see above)

Here is another link on the subject

the-tidings.com/2008/080108/vatliturgy.htm

 

[Brendan]

He can say the Latin or Italian words if he wants, but right now, the only English translation he’s permitted to use says “our sacrifice”.

No, that is not true. You gave a statement by a Committee by the USCCB, but is a Commitee is not liturgically binding on a local Ordinary.

At best, it can issue guidelines.

 

[japhy]

No, that is not true. You gave a statement by a Committee by the USCCB, but is a Commitee is not liturgically binding on a local Ordinary.

Then I’ll quote the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (Prot. N. 1464/06/L, 23 June 2008):
[T]he Congregation does not intend that these texts should be put into liturgical use immediately. Instead, the granting now of the recognitio to this crucial segment of the Roman Missal will provide time for the pastoral preparation of priests, deacons and for appropriate catechesis of the lay faithful.
No date is given for when “immediately” comes to an end. I do not see anything from the Holy See which implies that Bishops in the US can permit the use of the new texts.

The accompanying letter from Bishop Serratelli says “The text itself is provided now for study and formation only, and will only be promulgated for use in the celebration of the Mass upon the approval of the full revised text of the Roman Missal.”

Do you have any practical evidence?

 

[malphono]

The sacrifice itself is not only that of the priest, for in offering the sacrifice, the priest is offering what the people have given. The hands of the priest are consecrated that he may offer the Oblation which, at least in olden times, was provided by the people, and this he offers in his own name and in the name of those present. This is rather clearly expressed in the diptychs of the various Anaphorae of the Syriac Churches. For example, the Anahpora of the Twelve Apostles, says:

Remember, Lord, your flock, especially those who offer you this Oblation…

Visually, this concept is most clearly represented in an ad orientem situation, where all, priest and congregation alike, are facing (at least, liturgical) east.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[ASD]

Offering the Immaculate Victiom, not only through the hands of the priest but also together with him, they should learn to offer themselves.

I don’t really know what I’m doing, but just for the fun of it. From William Whitaker’s WORDS:

1. 
   *]immaculatam ADJ ACC S F
   *]hostiam NOUN ACC S F
   *]non ADV
   *]tantum ADV
   *]per PREP ACC
   *]sacerdotis NOUN GEN S C
   *]manus NOUN ACC P
   *]sed CONJ
   *]etiam CONJ
   *]una ADV
   *]cum PREP ABL S M
   *]ipso PRON ABL S M
   *]offerentes VPAR ACC PRES ACTIVE PPL
   *]seipsos PRON ACC P M
   *]offerre VERB PRES ACTIVE INF
   *]discan VERB disco, discere ??
   
   1. 
      *]immaculate
      *]victim
      *]not
      *]only
      *]through, by means of
      *]Priest’s; of the Priest
      *]hands
      *]but
      *]also
      *]at the same time
      *]with
      *][with] itself
      *]offering, presenting
      *]they themselves
      *]to offer
      *]must be learned ??
      
      I don’t know what to make of discans. Is that a typo?

 

[ASD]

ASD;4679878:

Extremist Reactioanry Dicta

: I suspect that it’s typical manipulative, sleight of hand. When “my and yours sacrifice” is changed to “our sacrifice,” translation of the liturgy is being used to drill a particular ecclesiology into us.Well, they did it in other places too. They simply dropped the word sanctae from the translation: right now we say “for the good of all his Church” but soon we’ll say “for the good of all his holy Church”.

A curious irony occurs to me about this:

Suppose it was decreed tomorrow: “OK, we’re going back to the old ways. From now on, everything will be in Latin. If you have questions, ask your parish Priest.”

No doubt many people would object vociferously. But, people don’t object to getting everything from committees of translators.

What’s the difference?

 

[japhy]

I don’t really know what I’m doing, but just for the fun of it.

Let me try my hand at it. Let’s break it down: “immaculatam hostiam, non tantum per sacerdotis manus, sed etiam una cum ipso offerentes, seipsos offerre discant”. (The post was missing a ‘t’ at the end of ‘discant’.)

“immaculatam hostiam” is an accusative noun phrase, “the immaculate victim”: it is the object of a verb (offerentes).

“non tantum per sacerdotis manus” means “not only through (or: by means of) the hands of the priest”.

“sed etiam una cum ipso” means “but also together along with (una cum seems a bit emphatic here) him[self]”.

“offerentes” is a verb participle meaning “offering”.

“seipsos offerre discant” is a phrase meaning “they may learn” (discant) “to offer” (offerre) “themselves” (seipsos). “themselves” here meaning “their selves”, rather than “they may learn to offer for themselves”.

“Offering the immaculate victim, not only through the hands of the priest but also together along with him, they may learn to offer themselves.”

 

[japhy]

Suppose it was decreed tomorrow: “OK, we’re going back to the old ways. From now on, everything will be in Latin. If you have questions, ask your parish Priest.” No doubt many people would object vociferously. But, people don’t object to getting everything from committees of translators. What’s the difference?

Because people assume that, because it’s in a language they understand, the translation is right and they know what it means, which is the terrible flaw in the whole system. Too many Catholics don’t know what they’re saying, and some that do know the wrong things, because what they’re saying isn’t accurate.

The “maker of … all things, seen and unseen” from the Creed is my favorite example. In the Latin and the Greek, the phrase means “visible and invisible”, not “seen and unseen”. And there’s a difference between being “unseen” and being “invisible”:

There are things in our solar system, our galaxy, and our universe that none of us will ever see, that no human will ever see, and these are truly “unseen”… but they’re visible. What “visible and invisible” is all about, as Pope Paul VI explained in his 1968 embellishment of the Credo, is the physical creation vs. the spiritual creation. There was a heresy in the early centuries of the Church that the physical world was created by an evil god and the spiritual world was created by a good god; the Credo affirms the faith of the Church in “one God” who created all that exists, both the physical and the spiritual.

Does Joe Catholic who recites the Creed once a week know that?

 

[ASD]

I don’t know what to make of discans. Is that a typo?

discant

disco, discere, didici, -
PRES ACTIVE SUB 3 P
may they learn

 

[fellowChristian]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church…

**1350 **
The presentation of the offerings (the Offertory). Then, sometimes in procession, the bread and wine are brought to the altar; they will be offered by the priest in the name of Christ in the Eucharistic sacrifice in which they will become his body and blood. It is the very action of Christ at the Last Supper—“taking the bread and a cup.” "The Church alone offers this pure oblation to the Creator, when she offers what comes forth from his creation with thanksgiving."177 The presentation of the offerings at the altar takes up the gesture of Melchizedek and commits the Creator’s gifts into the hands of Christ who, in his sacrifice, brings to perfection all human attempts to offer sacrifices.

**1359 **
The Eucharist, the sacrament of our salvation accomplished by Christ on the cross, is also a sacrifice of praise in thanksgiving for the work of creation. In the Eucharistic sacrifice the whole of creation loved by God is presented to the Father through the death and the Resurrection of Christ. Through Christ the Church can offer the sacrifice of praise in thanksgiving for all that God has made good, beautiful, and just in creation and in humanity.

**1368 **
The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ’s sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

In the catacombs the Church is often represented as a woman in prayer, arms outstretched in the praying position. Like Christ who stretched out his arms on the cross, through him, with him, and in him, she offers herself and intercedes for all men.

Our participation in Christ’s sacrifice

**618 **
The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the "one mediator between God and men."452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the
paschal mystery” is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to "take up [their] cross and follow [him],"454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries.456 This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.457

Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.458

**1109 **
The epiclesis is also a prayer for the full effect of the assembly’s communion with the mystery of Christ. "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit"28 have to remain with us always and bear fruit beyond the Eucharistic celebration. The Church therefore asks the Father to send the Holy Spirit to make the lives of the faithful a living sacrifice to God by their spiritual transformation into the image of Christ, by concern for the Church’s unity, and by taking part in her mission through the witness and service of charity.

**2031 **
The moral life is spiritual worship. We "present [our] bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God,"73 within the Body of Christ that we form and in communion with the offering of his Eucharist. In the liturgy and the celebration of the sacraments, prayer and teaching are conjoined with the grace of Christ to enlighten and nourish Christian activity. As does the whole of the Christian life, the moral life finds its source and summit in the Eucharistic sacrifice.

This is what I learned before I went to bed:thumbsup:

ARTICLE 3
THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt1art3.shtml#1359