T
theistgal
Guest
I don’t agree with piouswoman; however, Paul told women to keep silent in the Church. This, in case you weren’t aware, is not “the Church”!
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L
laudamus_te
Guest
Bravo! It is wrong for pnewton to use your gender to slap you down and shut you up, and to twist St. Paul’s teaching to defend his behavior. Our Catholic Faith does indeed need defending, and unfortunately it needs a lot of defending against Catholics themselves! The post quoting Ghandi is an excellent case in point. Ghandi is quoted on a Catholic forum, and not only does just one faithful Catholic speak up and point out the error and scandal, but the post is praised! This is a great example of false ecumenism gone wild!
S
St_Aloysius
Guest
By “mankind perfected” I am not denying his divinity, only asserting that he is the fullness of what man was destined to be: the New Adam, as it were. Our Lord is the perfect man, and, indeed: “God became man so that man might become god.” (St. Athanasius) The Incarnation elevates and in a way glorifies man, and it reveals to us the divine spark hidden within each person–ignited by the passionate love of Christ and strengthened through grace in the Sacraments.
I apologize for the sloppily stated manner in which I sought to make my point.
Indeed, but this is only because the Church’s origin lies tied to the God whose truth is universal.
Scripture, however, simply doesn’t not condone the kind of aggressive and shadowy proselytizing that SSPX engages in. Rather, we are to testify to our faith through our actions, through sincere imitation of Christ and regular performance of the Works of Mercy: “Preach the gospel, use words when necessary.” (St. Francis)
Let’s.
P
piouswoman
Guest
Yes, lets…but lets also not take swipes at the SSPX…for they do not “engage” in aggressive and shadowy proselytizing, they hold fast to tradition and the True Faith…and that is the best testimony given and cannot be denied. If you make accusations such as that you should be able to show concrete proof, not just your opinion.By “mankind perfected” I am not denying his divinity, only asserting that he is the fullness of what man was destined to be: the New Adam, as it were. Our Lord is the perfect man, and, indeed: “God became man so that man might become god.” (St. Athanasius) The Incarnation elevates and in a way glorifies man, and it reveals to us the divine spark hidden within each person–ignited by the passionate love of Christ and strengthened through grace in the Sacraments.
I apologize for the sloppily stated manner in which I sought to make my point.
Indeed, but this is only because the Church’s origin lies tied to the God whose truth is universal.
Scripture, however, simply doesn’t not condone the kind of aggressive and shadowy proselytizing that SSPX engages in. Rather, we are to testify to our faith through our actions, through sincere imitation of Christ and regular performance of the Works of Mercy: “Preach the gospel, use words when necessary.” (St. Francis)
Let’s.
You see, you started out with a post that seemed balanced and reasonable and ended with a complete lack of charity. You must think that saying we testify to our faith by our actions does not apply to you.
I do accept the apology you offered.
J
JReducation
Guest
Why don’t we agree to start over. I can see that PW and St Aloysius are talking cross purposes.
The thread is not about SSPX, it’s about the Holy Father.
The idea is not to dvide more than we already have. The idea is to united and reconcile. The Gospel is not a buffet where we pick and choose. It’s a full meal where all of the dishes belong together.
Charity and respect are not just for those who agree with us, but for all.
This discussion seems to have decayed into a battle over who is right and wrong. Battles have never been the answer. That how we arrived at the first great schism and how we provoked the Protestant Reformation, later the departure of the Old Catholics and now the SSPX situation.
When people begin to shout in each other’s face there is not hope for dialogue. Dialogue only comes through common ground and common interest.
The common ground here is Christ and the common interest should be unity.
JR
The thread is not about SSPX, it’s about the Holy Father.
The idea is not to dvide more than we already have. The idea is to united and reconcile. The Gospel is not a buffet where we pick and choose. It’s a full meal where all of the dishes belong together.
Charity and respect are not just for those who agree with us, but for all.
This discussion seems to have decayed into a battle over who is right and wrong. Battles have never been the answer. That how we arrived at the first great schism and how we provoked the Protestant Reformation, later the departure of the Old Catholics and now the SSPX situation.
When people begin to shout in each other’s face there is not hope for dialogue. Dialogue only comes through common ground and common interest.
The common ground here is Christ and the common interest should be unity.
JR
E
elts1956
Guest
Okay, let’s laugh together PW.
J
JReducation
Guest
I’m glad to see that we’re finally laughing at something on this thread. I was wondering about something. As I posed above, why don’t we start over?
The thread is about the Holy Father and the question is “Does he feel different?” I have no idea how HE feels, but does he feel different to us is an easier question to answer.
I believe that we should begin to answer the question with some positives, not negatives. Good grief folks. There are enough negatives in this world. But you cannot build on negatives.
My suggestion is what feels different about the Holy Father that we like or that makes us feel better about our faith and more hopeful about the Church’s future? Let’s turn the question into a positive one.
I for one feel very comfortable with the fact that Pope Benedict corrected an illusion that had lasted for almost half century regarding the Roman missal and the Tridentine mass. I’m an OF person myself. However, as a Catholic, I believe that the more people that the Church can draw to Christ; the closer she comes to fulfilling her mission. If the EF serves to draw souls into a deeper relationship with Christ and there is nothing immoral or illegal about it, then we should have it available where it is possible. That to me feels different about Benedict XVI. He is looking to give the faithful as many forms as possible to celebrate the Eucharist and preserve the unity of the Latin Rite.
Also, while he was the Prefect of the Congregation of the Faith (short version of a long name) he was the head theologian of the Church. His job was not to engage people, but to make sure that the theology of the Church was consistent with revelation. As pope his duties and relationship with the Church has expanded. He is her spiritual father and her shepherd. Not only is he watching over the orthodoxy of our theology, but he is also working with the bishops, priests, deacons, religious and laity around the world to connect with God’s people. He is no longer hidden in an office reviewing theology books. He is dealing with governments, problems in the Church, problems around the world, people of other faiths, the issue of violence, war and terrorism which inflicts so much harm not only on the body, but also on the soul.
When you’re the man at the top and you have to face the people, what looks fine on paper suddenly becomes very challenging to implement. He has not given up his theological ideas, he has switched modes from being just a theologian to being a shepherd and moving slowly to implement the theology of the Church without causing more factions within the Church and with people of other faiths, not if you want to bring them in. This is a positive. He is facing the real world head on, not from behind a computer where he wrote theology. He’s doing a very good job.
In addition, he is listening more. When you’re a scholar you’re tempted to listen to ideas. This is a good thing. This is what scholars do. When you’re a pope you have to listen to people and connect the ideas with the people. This is not a compromise of the ideals that you have learned or have been handed down to you. This is a ministry. St. Benedict, from whom he takes his name, was a great listener. He didn’t speak until he had heard all the sides of an issue and had prayed over them. He taught his monks to do the same. This is why his order is famous for their hospitality to Christians and non Christians. They didn’t sell out. They discovered that listening they learned the needs of people and they could separate from what was nonsense and what was really a spiritual need.
Benedict is doing a great deal of listening to the people of the world, just like St. Benedict. As he listens he responds very graciously and very appropriately, without intimidation and without compromising the faith. In effect, he has to slow down from the speed at which he worked when he was a theologian in a back office who only worked with ideas, but not directly with people. Probably for the first time in many years, he’s actually doing priestly ministry. You don’t have to be a priest to be a theologian; but you must be a good priest to be a pope.
I invite anyone who wants to piggy back on this to think about how the Pope is different in a positive way. What are the positive differences that we see? Let’s not compare him to John Paul II. That’s not fair to either man. They were very different.
John Paul was charismatic and he was also a diplomat. This was his call, to bring the Church to all the corners of the world. He did a good job at this. He was also a mystic.
Benedict is a scholar and a thinker. Both men actually go well back to back, because the Church needs both kinds of leaders. We had the mystic and diplomat. Now we have the scholar and thinker. How is the man we now have different in a good way? What are the strengths that we are seeing that we did not expect?
JR
The thread is about the Holy Father and the question is “Does he feel different?” I have no idea how HE feels, but does he feel different to us is an easier question to answer.
I believe that we should begin to answer the question with some positives, not negatives. Good grief folks. There are enough negatives in this world. But you cannot build on negatives.
My suggestion is what feels different about the Holy Father that we like or that makes us feel better about our faith and more hopeful about the Church’s future? Let’s turn the question into a positive one.
I for one feel very comfortable with the fact that Pope Benedict corrected an illusion that had lasted for almost half century regarding the Roman missal and the Tridentine mass. I’m an OF person myself. However, as a Catholic, I believe that the more people that the Church can draw to Christ; the closer she comes to fulfilling her mission. If the EF serves to draw souls into a deeper relationship with Christ and there is nothing immoral or illegal about it, then we should have it available where it is possible. That to me feels different about Benedict XVI. He is looking to give the faithful as many forms as possible to celebrate the Eucharist and preserve the unity of the Latin Rite.
Also, while he was the Prefect of the Congregation of the Faith (short version of a long name) he was the head theologian of the Church. His job was not to engage people, but to make sure that the theology of the Church was consistent with revelation. As pope his duties and relationship with the Church has expanded. He is her spiritual father and her shepherd. Not only is he watching over the orthodoxy of our theology, but he is also working with the bishops, priests, deacons, religious and laity around the world to connect with God’s people. He is no longer hidden in an office reviewing theology books. He is dealing with governments, problems in the Church, problems around the world, people of other faiths, the issue of violence, war and terrorism which inflicts so much harm not only on the body, but also on the soul.
When you’re the man at the top and you have to face the people, what looks fine on paper suddenly becomes very challenging to implement. He has not given up his theological ideas, he has switched modes from being just a theologian to being a shepherd and moving slowly to implement the theology of the Church without causing more factions within the Church and with people of other faiths, not if you want to bring them in. This is a positive. He is facing the real world head on, not from behind a computer where he wrote theology. He’s doing a very good job.
In addition, he is listening more. When you’re a scholar you’re tempted to listen to ideas. This is a good thing. This is what scholars do. When you’re a pope you have to listen to people and connect the ideas with the people. This is not a compromise of the ideals that you have learned or have been handed down to you. This is a ministry. St. Benedict, from whom he takes his name, was a great listener. He didn’t speak until he had heard all the sides of an issue and had prayed over them. He taught his monks to do the same. This is why his order is famous for their hospitality to Christians and non Christians. They didn’t sell out. They discovered that listening they learned the needs of people and they could separate from what was nonsense and what was really a spiritual need.
Benedict is doing a great deal of listening to the people of the world, just like St. Benedict. As he listens he responds very graciously and very appropriately, without intimidation and without compromising the faith. In effect, he has to slow down from the speed at which he worked when he was a theologian in a back office who only worked with ideas, but not directly with people. Probably for the first time in many years, he’s actually doing priestly ministry. You don’t have to be a priest to be a theologian; but you must be a good priest to be a pope.
I invite anyone who wants to piggy back on this to think about how the Pope is different in a positive way. What are the positive differences that we see? Let’s not compare him to John Paul II. That’s not fair to either man. They were very different.
John Paul was charismatic and he was also a diplomat. This was his call, to bring the Church to all the corners of the world. He did a good job at this. He was also a mystic.
Benedict is a scholar and a thinker. Both men actually go well back to back, because the Church needs both kinds of leaders. We had the mystic and diplomat. Now we have the scholar and thinker. How is the man we now have different in a good way? What are the strengths that we are seeing that we did not expect?
JR
E
elts1956
Guest
Hello Jr. . .
As I understand it, Pope Benedict XVI did not want this job. He had dreams of retiring and continuing in his theological studies, but God had other plans. And as usual God is taking care of us by giving us the man we need to lead us during these times of upheaval in the world. I think he will bring all of us back and closer to what the Catholic Church has always been. A man with the smile he has and the love for all of us I see in his face won’t be a mistake. God Bless and keep our Pope Benedict XVI close to Him. He will be the defender of our Faith.
As I understand it, Pope Benedict XVI did not want this job. He had dreams of retiring and continuing in his theological studies, but God had other plans. And as usual God is taking care of us by giving us the man we need to lead us during these times of upheaval in the world. I think he will bring all of us back and closer to what the Catholic Church has always been. A man with the smile he has and the love for all of us I see in his face won’t be a mistake. God Bless and keep our Pope Benedict XVI close to Him. He will be the defender of our Faith.
J
JReducation
Guest
It is no secret that he wanted to get out of town before John Paul died. He had presented his resignation several times and John Paul refused to accept it. Joseph Ratzinger wanted to return to his home in Germany and write.
Since John Paul was so loved and trusted by the hierarchy, there is no doubt in most people’s mind that they trusted his predilection for Joseph Ratzinger and considered it to be the Holy Spirit guiding them to elect him.
As far as Benedict is concerned, he had no more desire to become pope than he did to go to the moon.
This is the mark of this man’s obedience and holiness. They go hand in hand. St. Thomas said that he who is not obedient cannot possibly be holy even through prayer. Joseph Ratzinger accepted the election out of obedience to the Holy Spirit. In doing so he gave up his dream of becoming a retired theologian and spending his time in the halls of academia and the great libraries of Germany. This is truly detachment and the practice of poverty. When you give up what you most love out of obedience, you are truly poor. He exemplifies obedience and the poverty that we see in such great saints as St. Francis and Bl. Mother Teresa. To lay down one’s life in the service to others. This man gave up the rest of his life. He will never get that back. He gave it up to serve, because this is the will of God. This is holiness.
Whether he makes mistakes or not, the Holy Spirit feels that this is the man that needs to occupy the chair of Peter. The Holy Spirit has his own plans. Obviously Benedict fits into that plan somehow. Even Benedict has no clue as to how. He goes about his daily duties and hopes that whatever he does or does not do is part of God’s plan. This is the virtue of hope. Hope is not about hoping that you win the lotery. Hope is about trusting. You trust that God will use you as he wants. You do what you need to do and let God be God. Only history will tell what Benedict’s part is in the story of salvation. It is not only tiresome to hear people speculate that this is the pope who will save the Church from all these errors, it is arrogant too. To assume that we know how the Holy Spirit is going to use Benedict is plain arrogance or naivete. My personal policy has been to let God do his job and I’ll do mine.
Lead he will, but where he will lead the Church only God knows. Only God knows where he wants the Church to go. The Pope is his Vicar, not his boss. He will do what Christ said, “Feed my sheep. Take care of my sheep. Bind and unbiind, hold the keys of Heaven and Hell.” This he will do. Will he solve the problems of the Church and restore all things? Who knows except God. Will he lead in the direction that God wants? The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against him. So even if he takes a few back roads, they will lead to where God wants. They will not lead to hell. With this faith in Chrit’s promise we can all sleep well at night. It’s like this. Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against Peter, but he never promised that it would be a trip without turbulence. We’ll have to wait and see.
This is the proof of the holiness of the Catholic. Can the Catholic do what the saints did? Can the Catholics of today fulfill their role in the Church and the world without despair, without anger, without resentment, without anxiety and most of all without wanting to run. Christ did not run to Calvary, he walked very slowly. A short trip of about a mile took him more than an hour. We want to run and fix things quickly. But you can’t run if you’re carrying your cross. Sometimes we’re so busy minding other people’s crosses, that we leave ours at home.
The Holy Spirit chose him and god does not make mistakes. However, God’s personell department doesn’t have the best track record in the world. He’s not too picky about whom he hires. So his employees do make mistakes. They have made them in the past, no matter how much we want to think that the past was always so perfect and they will make them tomorrow morning. But the good thing is that despite God’s employment practices, we’re still here.
Those are my two cents.
JR
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pnewton
Guest
The Holy Father wouldn’t be the first person to change perspectives after taking a new job. He also would not be the first Pope to be led by the Holy Spirit in a way different than he was before receivin the charism that goes with his position. I do wonder just what it would take, how many popes, how many decades, to accept that if God continues to guide the Church in a certain direction that it is God doing the steering. Any change in Pope Benedict speaks volumes in support of the Holy Spirit at work.
E
ethelzguy
Guest
Amen. One can not know what it is to sit in the “big chair” at any endeavor until they have done so.
Just as a Finance Director in a large company who ascends to President or General Manager in said company. He develops visions and opinions as to what he believes to be proper in the higher office…but if and when they ascend to that higher office, they often see things in a different light.
So, it may well be with Benedict XVI. Things he saw, felt, and wrote (or talked) about as Cardinal Ratzinger may be seen in a different light from the Chair of Peter.
S
SisterSnowflake
Guest
Send me your e-mail address and I’ll send you a copy.Welcome to Michigan
I’d love to read your paper! Do you have it available anywhere?
I too love our Dear Pope - I think he is EXACTLY what the Church needs right now.
~Liza
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elts1956
Guest
As each of us grows in the light of the Holy Spirit, each and every one of us has changes in perspectives. I think Benny is growing into his job. Bless him. Keep him in your prayers. I will.
L
laudamus_te
Guest
Thank you for your posts, JR, they are worth much more than two cents. I will work harder at charity. Pride is the root of all sin, and it is a difficult one to battle sometimes.Those are my two cents.
JR
J
JReducation
Guest
You are most welcome Laudamus
What made me think of all of this was my own life experiences. I know it cannot compare to those of a pope, but they do help me understand and look for the positive changes.
After graduating from grad school I worked with different religious orders, parishes and diocesan ministries. I alway did academic work. I wrote, taught, gave talks, that sort of thing. As the years passed I was asked to assume positions of leadership.
I became Director of Pastoral Care for people with disabiliities inone diocese, director of religious educatoin in another, Dean of a Catholic Colledge some place else, today I directa school for children and adolescents with autism and I run a ministry to parents of children with disabilities.
When you move from behind the computer and out of the library and have to deal directly with the people and those who serve the people you either develop a big picture mentality or you are sunk.
In my own experience, developing the big picture mentality meant putting all of the writing and theology on the table and stopping to lisen to people, then reflecting on what they said in relation to what I knew. Then comes the hard part, putting it all into action. It’s easy to write ideas. It’s much more difficult to implement and apply them.
When I look at someone like Benedict, I can’t help feel sorry for him and at the same time admiration. I really believe that he is transitioning very well from being the idea man to being the the protagonist on the scene.
I feel badly when people don’t give him or any other pope credit for this great effort. I also feel badly when people don’t realize that it takes the Holy Spirit to help people make this transitioins smoothly and effectively.
We all desire mercy, but we are so often short of it for others.
JR
C
consumedconvert
Guest
I can’t really speak to whether or not, from my perspective, Papa Benedict/Cardinal Ratzinger has changed, because he’s the only Pope I’ve ever known. As a Protestant I was scarcely aware of His Holiness John Paul II. I only remember that after he died, so many Protestant and Evangelical preachers and leading men were praising him that one Evangelical magazine ran an article that asked: Considering all these responses from Protestants, only one question remains: “is the Pope Catholic?”
All I know is that he is a brilliant man and I have to fight to comprehend many of his writings; he is an incredibly kind and loving man; he is a great leader; he has given up his dreams to lead and serve us; and I love him.
He is Papa.
And I pray one day, when his death is near, I will be able to rush to St Peter’s square to shout “Sanctus! Sanctus!” And, “Thank you Papa!”
May that day be very many years from now.
All I know is that he is a brilliant man and I have to fight to comprehend many of his writings; he is an incredibly kind and loving man; he is a great leader; he has given up his dreams to lead and serve us; and I love him.
He is Papa.
And I pray one day, when his death is near, I will be able to rush to St Peter’s square to shout “Sanctus! Sanctus!” And, “Thank you Papa!”
May that day be very many years from now.
J
JReducation
Guest
He is both brilliant and holy. You are 100% correct. My only sadness is that you did not live under the reign of John Paul II. He was another brilliant, holy and charismatic man.I can’t really speak to whether or not, from my perspective, Papa Benedict/Cardinal Ratzinger has changed, because he’s the only Pope I’ve ever known. As a Protestant I was scarcely aware of His Holiness John Paul II. I only remember that after he died, so many Protestant and Evangelical preachers and leading men were praising him that one Evangelical magazine ran an article that asked: Considering all these responses from Protestants, only one question remains: “is the Pope Catholic?”
All I know is that he is a brilliant man and I have to fight to comprehend many of his writings; he is an incredibly kind and loving man; he is a great leader; he has given up his dreams to lead and serve us; and I love him.
He is Papa.
And I pray one day, when his death is near, I will be able to rush to St Peter’s square to shout “Sanctus! Sanctus!” And, “Thank you Papa!”
May that day be very many years from now.
Their styles are different, but they compliment each other. The succession is perfect. We have the Pastoral Pope followed by the Teaching Pope. Their successors before all the way back to the late 1800s were incredible people.
JR
P
pnewton
Guest
I guess the Holy Spirit is doing a pretty good job.Their styles are different, but they compliment each other. The succession is perfect. We have the Pastoral Pope followed by the Teaching Pope. Their successors before all the way back to the late 1800s were incredible people.
JR
J
JReducation
Guest
I certainly believe so. If one is rational, it stands to reason that in a faith community of over 2 billion people around the world there are going to be all kinds of problems.I guess the Holy Spirit is doing a pretty good job.
If we look at the first 1,000 years of Christianity there were less Christians and they had serious problems. No single pope was ever able to address all of them or resolve even half of them Each papacy and council dealt with a piece of the puzzle.
This is the same today, only on a larger scale due to the larger numbers and the greater complexities of the modern world Ipso facto, every pope in contemporary time is going to choose his arena to do battle given his gifts.
It’s analogous to the construction of a city, in this case the City of God as St. Augustine called it. Each architect assumes responsibility for part of the project and works on that.
JR
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