The Pope

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I had a Catholic friend tell me that she thinks the pope shouldn’t be adorned like he is and that he shouldn’t be held in such a high place, but that he should be poor and live in the woods. I told her the Matthew 16:18 quote, but I don’t know what else to tell her. Any ideas? Thanks!
 
You could tell your friend that Pope John Paul I ended one thousand years of tradition by preferring a simple white cassock to all of the luxurious vestments, not to mention the triple crown. All of the Popes since 1978 have followed his example.
 
You could tell your friend that Pope John Paul I ended one thousand years of tradition by preferring a simple white cassock to all of the luxurious vestments, not to mention the triple crown. All of the Popes since 1978 have followed his example.
Actually the ‘white cassock’ goes back quite a bit further than John Paul I. It started with Pope Pius V who as a Dominican wore white.

As for living in the woods, he doesn’t live in splendor. He doesn’t ‘own’ anything in the Vatican and the papal apartments are by no means ‘luxuorious.’ The man DOES work, you know. . .he has to do quite a bit. What is he supposed to do, write on strips of bark with a burnt wood branch?😃
 
I had a Catholic friend tell me that she thinks the pope shouldn’t be adorned like he is and that he shouldn’t be held in such a high place, but that he should be poor and live in the woods. I told her the Matthew 16:18 quote, but I don’t know what else to tell her. Any ideas? Thanks!
The Pope is not only the head of a church but also head of a state with the
powers of state. And the reason he is head of state of Rome is to allow him
to be free of control by any other state or country. In that way he is free to
govern and sanctify the church without outside interference. As head of state,
he has certain obligations and responsibilities and must look the part. We do not
find other heads of state living in the woods but living in public to fulfill their
function as head. And it is expected of any head of state to dress accordingly.

Just a thought.
 
I had a Catholic friend tell me that she thinks the pope shouldn’t be adorned like he is and that he shouldn’t be held in such a high place, but that he should be poor and live in the woods. I told her the Matthew 16:18 quote, but I don’t know what else to tell her. Any ideas? Thanks!
Logic dictates that a 2,000 year old organization has certain norms and customs in its hierarchical structure. It’s a nice, quaint thought of your friend, but outward identity is one of the things that any organization that wants to maintain itself perpetually must have, or it will fail.
You could tell your friend that Pope John Paul I ended one thousand years of tradition by preferring a simple white cassock to all of the luxurious vestments, not to mention the triple crown. All of the Popes since 1978 have followed his example.
Apparently you haven’t seen Pope Benedict in the past several years. He regularly wears extremely heavily ornamented vestments and bejeweled mitres, and has revived several papal fashions like fur-lined capes and the bright red shoes. If you compare the wardrobes of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, I think you will see that Benedict’s (at least as of 2008 when Abp. Piero Marini was ousted for Guido Marini, and even a bit before then) is quite a bit more sartorially refined. I don’t mean that as a criticism of the good Pope John Paul, only his wardrobe, but it’s a simple observation.

Personally, I think things like these are extremely important, and for one reason: to maintain image. I don’t mean that in the sense that it should be done for its own sake, but as I alluded above, as humans we are extremely visual creatures. We need these kinds of things to maintain good and proper order. Who, for example, would know who the Pope is if he was caught in a mass wearing ugly drab vestments and wore no distinguishing trinkets like his red shoes and pallium? Of course, we die-hard Catholics would still know, if not by his face then by his striking white hair, but what about barely-committed Catholics and non-Catholics? They would not be able to pick the Pope apart from the random cardinals surrounding him. Fine, image- and design-laden vestments serve much the same purpose as stained glass windows or inlaid floors in churches: they are a teaching tool. They do not exist for themselves, but to teach. I don’t mean fine papal vestments tell a Bible story like windows or floors can, but they help to set the Pope apart from the cardinals and simple priests and deacons.
 
I don’t think image is the only issue here. Many of these items of clothing have a history behind them. We cannot simply forsake them as we wish. Of course, if the Holy Father were to decide tomorrow that he would hang up his camauro, I’d be upset but I would understand his decision. However, I’d be horrified if people suggest the Pope wear one of those business suits. Don’t get me wrong - I love suits, but the Church has her own distinctive dress that sets out her clergy as men of God and not people of a secular, ignorant society. 👍

If people are criticising his vestments, then their ignorance is even more grave. Every vestment is a profound well of symbolism and significance, steeped in centuries, if not millenia, of tradition. Each has their role in the liturgy, be it mass, benediction, or other occasions of prayer and devotion. When the Pope celebrates mass as an alter Christus, it’s only appropriate that we give God maximum glory in everything, and it is only sensible that the vestments are presentable. If we can dress up for weddings, why can we not dress up even better for a celebration of the Lord’s Sacrifice? Are we supposed to look fancy for all other occasions, but when it comes to worshipping the Lord, we are to appear as paupers? What does that tell us about our dedication to God? Are we trying to be like the hypocrites Jesus condemns? :tsktsk:

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 6:16[/BIBLEDRB]

As far as I’m concerned, I’ve never consider the Pope to be excessively ‘adorned’. By Catholic standards, his wardrobe is fine. In non-liturgical celebrations, he dresses simply. Is there an issue with a white cassock, fascia, and shoulder cape? The Pope wears these and looks stately and dignified. How about a youth who wears too-baggy/too-tight pre-ripped jeans, a studded leather belt, shoes the size of elephant feet, a rope of fake chains, branded t-shirts, and a leather vest, not to mention multiple piercings, aggressively styled hair, and still ends up looking like a court jester? Why don’t people complain about that? :rolleyes:

The Pope leads a simple life. People refuse to even consider it just because he doesn’t parade it. 🤷
 
I don’t think image is the only issue here. Many of these items of clothing have a history behind them. We cannot simply forsake them as we wish. Of course, if the Holy Father were to decide tomorrow that he would hang up his camauro, I’d be upset but I would understand his decision. However, I’d be horrified if people suggest the Pope wear one of those business suits. Don’t get me wrong - I love suits, but the Church has her own distinctive dress that sets out her clergy as men of God and not people of a secular, ignorant society. 👍

If people are criticising his vestments, then their ignorance is even more grave. Every vestment is a profound well of symbolism and significance, steeped in centuries, if not millenia, of tradition. Each has their role in the liturgy, be it mass, benediction, or other occasions of prayer and devotion. When the Pope celebrates mass as an alter Christus, it’s only appropriate that we give God maximum glory in everything, and it is only sensible that the vestments are presentable. If we can dress up for weddings, why can we not dress up even better for a celebration of the Lord’s Sacrifice? Are we supposed to look fancy for all other occasions, but when it comes to worshipping the Lord, we are to appear as paupers? What does that tell us about our dedication to God? Are we trying to be like the hypocrites Jesus condemns? :tsktsk:
Yes, it all goes back to identity. If these things go away, then our identity goes away. I wish people would stop pretending that we’re perfect beings that don’t need signs and symbols to be able to operate and live and communicate; we do. We are temporal, limited beings, and we need these kinds of things to be able to function as a society. To say otherwise is a fallacy of outdated contemporary thinking that, thankfully, we’re recovering from.
As far as I’m concerned, I’ve never consider the Pope to be excessively ‘adorned’. By Catholic standards, his wardrobe is fine. In non-liturgical celebrations, he dresses simply. Is there an issue with a white cassock, fascia, and shoulder cape? The Pope wears these and looks stately and dignified.

The Pope leads a simple life. People refuse to even consider it just because he doesn’t parade it. 🤷
Right, the white silk and wool simar is centuries old, and is very plain.
 
I had a Catholic friend tell me that she thinks the pope shouldn’t be adorned like he is and that he shouldn’t be held in such a high place

Sounds like the same confused folks of the 60’s that ignored GODS own instruction on the Ark he was to reside in and reinvented the greatest Mass ever created to adore our one true God…

… ‘Yeah we should have plain wooden Altars and tin or wooden chalices; and folk music, take communion in the hand, and animals tied up off to the side distracting us from our worship of God, lets be more like the Protestants, why their invited to the best parties and well liked by all the local political trash’… blah blah blah

…and the same know it all’s the stopped us praying the prayer to St Micheal at the end of mass because …'well the devil is such an old fashioned idea".

They were wrong.
 
I had a Catholic friend tell me that she thinks the pope shouldn’t be adorned like he is and that he shouldn’t be held in such a high place, but that he should be poor and live in the woods. I told her the Matthew 16:18 quote, but I don’t know what else to tell her. Any ideas? Thanks!
What she thinks is her own opinion. I doubt that anyone making such a statement would be easily convinced to the contrary. Heck, lots of Catholics, especially the more progressive among us, would argue exactly the same thing. I’ve seen posts from self professed Catholics on this very forum advocating selling everything of value that the Church has and distributing it to the poor. Many also feel that the position of Pope is antiquated and needs to be abolished, replaced by more of a communal council of Bishops and lay people…
 
Logic dictates that a 2,000 year old organization has certain norms and customs in its hierarchical structure. It’s a nice, quaint thought of your friend, but outward identity is one of the things that any organization that wants to maintain itself perpetually must have, or it will fail.

Apparently you haven’t seen Pope Benedict in the past several years. He regularly wears extremely heavily ornamented vestments and bejeweled mitres, and has revived several papal fashions like fur-lined capes and the bright red shoes. If you compare the wardrobes of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, I think you will see that Benedict’s (at least as of 2008 when Abp. Piero Marini was ousted for Guido Marini, and even a bit before then) is quite a bit more sartorially refined. I don’t mean that as a criticism of the good Pope John Paul, only his wardrobe, but it’s a simple observation.

Personally, I think things like these are extremely important, and for one reason: to maintain image. I don’t mean that in the sense that it should be done for its own sake, but as I alluded above, as humans we are extremely visual creatures. We need these kinds of things to maintain good and proper order. Who, for example, would know who the Pope is if he was caught in a mass wearing ugly drab vestments and wore no distinguishing trinkets like his red shoes and pallium? Of course, we die-hard Catholics would still know, if not by his face then by his striking white hair, but what about barely-committed Catholics and non-Catholics? They would not be able to pick the Pope apart from the random cardinals surrounding him. Fine, image- and design-laden vestments serve much the same purpose as stained glass windows or inlaid floors in churches: they are a teaching tool. They do not exist for themselves, but to teach. I don’t mean fine papal vestments tell a Bible story like windows or floors can, but they help to set the Pope apart from the cardinals and simple priests and deacons.
Bring back the Papal Tiara and the mantum!

 
Many also feel that the position of Pope is antiquated and needs to be abolished, replaced by more of a communal council of Bishops and lay people…
These people would be at least material heretics and potentially no longer Catholic. We shouldn’t give too much credence to what heretics or non-Catholics have to say about the office of Christ’s Vicar.
 
What she thinks is her own opinion. I doubt that anyone making such a statement would be easily convinced to the contrary. Heck, lots of Catholics, especially the more progressive among us, would argue exactly the same thing. I’ve seen posts from self professed Catholics on this very forum advocating selling everything of value that the Church has and distributing it to the poor. Many also feel that the position of Pope is antiquated and needs to be abolished, replaced by more of a communal council of Bishops and lay people…
And let’s not forget the words of Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull, Unam Sanctam, which even in the most lenient interpretations applies to all those who profess to be Catholic:

“Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
 
And let’s not forget the words of Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull, Unam Sanctam, which even in the most lenient interpretations applies to all those who profess to be Catholic:

“Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
The way that is written, it applies not only to institutional Catholics, but to every single person in the entire world. This comes in to play when, for example, we have a person hopelessly ignorant of Christ’s Truth, who nevertheless leads a good and moral life, who still goes to heaven; the person is Catholic and is subject to the Roman Pontiff, by an act of God.
 
The Vatican is a country within the city of Rome. The pope is the head of state of the Vatican and not (the city) of Rome. He remains a German citizen and has no rule or authority of the Italian State or the City of Rome.
The Pope is not only the head of a church but also head of a state with the
powers of state. And the reason he is head of state of Rome is to allow him
to be free of control by any other state or country. In that way he is free to
govern and sanctify the church without outside interference. As head of state,
he has certain obligations and responsibilities and must look the part. We do not
find other heads of state living in the woods but living in public to fulfill their
function as head. And it is expected of any head of state to dress accordingly.

Just a thought.
 
The Vatican is a country within the city of Rome. The pope is the head of state of the Vatican and not (the city) of Rome. He remains a German citizen and has no rule or authority of the Italian State or the City of Rome.
Actually, the Pope is a citizen of the Vatican City, his sovereign territory. I also do believe that he has a dual citizenship in Germany.
 
Gently tell your friend she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. John Paul II died practically a pauper. I’ve yet to meet a detractor who knows much of anything about the Catholic Church. Perhaps she’s looking to you to do the research for her and assuage her doubts and confusion. Sounds like the start of an interesting journey for both of you.
 
I had a Catholic friend tell me that she thinks the pope shouldn’t be adorned like he is and that he shouldn’t be held in such a high place, but that he should be poor and live in the woods. I told her the Matthew 16:18 quote, but I don’t know what else to tell her. Any ideas? Thanks!
Man is expected to be manly; that is, exercise virtue.

What is right and proper to one man is not always right and proper to another man.

Every man fills an office. Every man was created by God. Every man was created by God to have a place proper to where He wants that man to be now and forever. If someone rejects that notion tell them that God is perfect and unchanging, and that God is perfectly orderly in His creating (that’s a fancy way of saying, “God is immutable”). Every man has an office that he fills. The adornment goes not to the man but the office. All the adornment of every office that men fill is in reality adorning Christ. Jesus Christ is the teacher, the scientist, the physician, the priest, the king, the beggar, the imprisoned, the despairing, et cetra.

If the Pope were not to be properly adorned the man who fills the office would be in violation of virtue. He would not be manly. Firemen wear firehelmets and policemen dress like constables. An enormous heresy popular in the United States is one that recognises utilitarian function only. By the same token there is the simutaneous error in the United States that teaches that all decoration is mere window dressing on a wretched, fallen, helpless creature called man. Many, many Americans believe, quite sincerely and others quite sinisterly, that decorating humans is akin to putting perfume on a pig.

Americans perfume and paint their women because they think them pigs worth only their meat. This is completely at odds with the ancient Church, where She decorates Her women because they are something to behold and be held. This is a deeply ingrained idea inherited through the Mayflower Pilgrims from the Manicheist heresy of Calvinism. We have enshrined it in the ditty, “Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me…” By Manicheist I mean to say, the rejection of some matter as evil even though it was created by God. In otherwords, medicine is good when used as medicine. A Manichee would say this or that are always bad or even always evil (Think of the abolitionist movement in regards to beer, wine, and spirits… or tobacco, coffee, tea even… and also in a modern way with fat on their steaks… I take this last one quite personally given my vocation!)

When certain folks are jarred by a prince wearing princely gowns and performing princely ceremonies the failure is not neccessarily in the person who fails to see the purposes of these things. We are all fallen and the non-Catholic mind has a serious difficultly interpreting humanity. Where I live among the Mormons (for whom God is not immutable by the way but rather the idea is present that God is volunteerist) there is truly no conception of Original Sin (unless of course some evangelical folks have pricked and prodded them). I watch many of my neighbors go in circles losing their minds over very trivial and very human things simply because they have no philosophically consistent method to reconcile corruption in the world. I watched a grown man not long ago have a near emotional and mental breakdown because he wasn’t being rewarded materially for his quite devote prayers. I haven’t seen him in weeks.

I write all this only in so that we have to remember that there is sometimes not only an enormous cultural gap but also a much wider chasm of philosophical misunderstanding. The Theology will come easily to the man who does not have the philosophical gap. It comes easier still if there is a small cultural gap.

When in doubt look to commonsense.

Back to the original idea expressed at the top of my scribbling. The latin word for manliness is virtue… well… it means strength, but you get the picture.
 

Americans perfume and paint their women because they think them pigs worth only their meat. This is completely at odds with the ancient Church, where She decorates Her women because they are something to behold and be held. This is a deeply ingrained idea inherited through the Mayflower Pilgrims from the Manicheist heresy of Calvinism. We have enshrined it in the ditty, “Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me…” By Manicheist I mean to say, the rejection of some matter as evil even though it was created by God.
This is interesting. I have been thinking about how I clothe myself. I come from strong Evangelical roots. I had three brothers and my mother was afraid I would be vain so she cut my hair very short and dressed me very plain. When I went to my first healing ministry many years ago, the pastor asked me for some special childhood memory, whatever came to mind first. What came to mind was a pair of pink bell-bottom pants with white “powder puffs” on them (in the pattern of the fabric.) I told her I Ioved those pants, and she wanted to know why. It was because I was dressed so plain all the time, and those pants made me feel like a girl, and I really liked being a girl, but my parents never made me for special for that. So she prayed a prayer for healing for the loss of not being treated special like a cherished princess. I liked that prayer, and even though it had never occurred to me that my parents had done anything wrong, it comforted me.

I was born-again in college I practiced the Evangelical tradition. Later as a member, for a time, at a Plymouth Brethren Church, where I counseled with the pastors wife weekly for a year, I was continually encouraged subtlety, not explicitly, to ignore how I look, basically. Plain dress and ill-fitting clothes - tent-like dresses (coverage being the priority) - were the norm. And spending as little as possible on clothes was the only value in shopping. So I obediently ignored style and channeled my guilty interest in clothes into the colors and hues of the clothes… And I am still very picky about color!

I think this church was the extreme of pilgrim-like simplicity. But this and probably their “Umbrella Theory” which messed up my life, made woman unhappy and undervalued. Or at least, they did not celebrate their femininity. This was illustrated most strongly on an area-wide Bible retreat I went on annually for awhile. The ladies’ sleeping room was a giant upstairs attic room full of cots. Well, you could not sleep at night. The snoring was so loud, as soon as we went to bed, that I though someone was playing a joke on me! It was a cacophony! It was like everyone was yelling! I had to leave the building and sleep in a chair in the mess hall. Subsequent years I brought ear plugs…

As to the snoring, the fact was, there was an unusually disproportionate (compared to the rest of society) amount of very overweight woman among this group. Well we woman do tend to put on extra pounds, and not all overweight woman are unhappy, but I my feeling is that this very noticeable difference with this group is because of philosophical and theological teachings made these woman more unhappy on the inside than they seemed on the outside. On the outside they were all very dear salt-of-the-earth people. But when I converted (by that time i was a Baptist) it was rejecting the Umbrella Theory (that I was taught there) that unlocked the way for me.

I would further guess now, and this is only a recent thought, that they did not enjoy their marital intimacy with their husbands. Because if they were fulfilled, there wouldn’t be so much hunger to overeat. I think this would be a natural result of being in a sub-culture that devalues women. And I have long-thought, since converting, that the main problem in this and other Protestant faiths is the absence of Mary, who is only mentioned in the annual reading of the Christmas story, who “certainly had other children!” because in actual essence, God used her body to get His son here and then she didn’t matter really after that…

Back to clothes. I am a convert now, and the first thing I noticed was prayer postures and kneeling, sitting standing, sign of the cross- because, this is different: in Catholicism, the body matters! It is so different from my Protestant tradition, where to be holy meant to pretend you didn’t have a body…

So now, a few years (since 2000) hence conversion, and some time away from a bad marriage, I am getting into clothes for the first time. I enjoy putting them together for fit and style and celebrating the beauty God adorned me with as a woman. I am also an artist, so, this is an expression of that for me. My style harmonizes with the particular way God made me. Last year a friend started buying “me” clothes that looked terrible on her. I told her that I could help her pick something out that was “her”. Her style is completely different from mine. Using tools of things I have learned from reading, she was enthusiastically on board for a total revamp, and cut her hair in a new style and colored it back closer to its original, and got almost all new clothes - we did this so thrifty; thrift-stores and clearance sales - and her new style always get noticed. She wears things I would never wear but they are so her, and make her shine. She gets so many compliments now and is so confident. She looks years younger.

Next post! That was too long!
 
(the rest of above post)
It would clarify that story to say my style is soft classic and she is kind of perky flamboyant… And both of us are committed to modesty in dress and always have been. Only now I enjoy also using clothes to bring out beauty, because God made women beautiful. 🙂

Making the effort to look my best feels rebellious, almost, with so many years of training otherwise. My mother taught me, “Looks don’t matter” and “Pretty is is pretty does”. When I spent time dressing and fixing myself for the high school senior prom, I remember my mother saying, as I fussed in front of the mirror (something I normally did not do), “Well, I guess its okay to spend all that time in front of the mirror getting ready as long as you forget what you look like when you are out…” Yes, that was from her training.

Some things I read on Theology of the Body further confirmed to me that its okay to enjoy and appreciate the physical bodies God gave us.

Jimmy wrote:

I write all this only in so that we have to remember that there is sometimes not only an enormous cultural gap but also a much wider chasm of philosophical misunderstanding.
This is so true!
… Where I live among the Mormons (for whom God is not immutable by the way but rather the idea is present that God is volunteerist) there is truly no conception of Original Sin (unless of course some evangelical folks have pricked and prodded them). I watch many of my neighbors go in circles losing their minds over very trivial and very human things simply because they have no philosophically consistent method to reconcile corruption in the world. I watched a grown man not long ago have a near emotional and mental breakdown because he wasn’t being rewarded materially for his quite devote prayers. I haven’t seen him in weeks.
My freind just mentioned is Mormon. There is a divide between us now, and that has something to do with it. It is so sadly rule-based, not to mention the giant slew of other problems.

What do you mean by “God is volunteerist”? - I assume you are not referring to their lifestyle of volunterring?

Also, “I watch many of my neighbors go in circles losing their minds over very trivial and very human things simply because they have no philosophically consistent method to reconcile corruption in the world.” – can you give an example of this?

Also, your neighbor not beign rewarded materially, my friend had this same expectation, that you should have worldly success if you are livign properly, and ask God… To me its that same as the “name it and claim it” theology…
… The latin word for manliness is virtue… well… it means strength, but you get the picture.
I like that.
 
If you want an interesting read, try Eamon Duffy: “Saints and Sinners: A History of the Popes.” It’s in the third edition now. ISBN: 978-0300115970.

The nice thing about this book is that it is readable, which many summaries of topics in church history are not. It nicely examines the development of the episcopate in Rome, and sticks to a historical examination. Eamon Duffy is a Catholic theologian, but he will not pull any punches. He is a full academic, and he follows the truth. In the first few pages he tears apart a series of misconceptions that are often used to justify the position of the Bishop of Rome. I just went back through the section on Gregory the Great, and it is fantastic! It is quite an interesting read, and is probably the best resource available to you.

Besides the fact that it is an excellent, thorough, and well-written study, the work can be ordered for less than $15. Just throwing that out there 👍
 
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