The Pre-Ordination of our souls

[ProdglArchitect]

I want to preface this by saying that I am not talking about the pre-existence of the soul. I know that souls are only created when a new person comes into being.

This is a question about the form of the soul.

I have been wondering recently if perhaps the form of our souls is already pre-determined by God from His eternal state. Would I always have been the way I am, even if I had been conceived at a different time? Would my son still be the same even if he had come along a year or two earlier?

From a scientific perspective, we say that a person’s physical characteristics are the result of the semi-random combination of genes from the sperm and the egg, plus the added randomizing factor of whether or not the Y chromosome develops.

From a faith perspective, we know that nothing is truly random, and that God has a hand in all things.

So, since God gave my son all the particular physical characteristics he has, would God have always chosen those characteristics, regardless of the moment of conception? I recognize that there’s the question of external stimuli in regards to the formation of personality, and that those things would be different, I’m thinking more long the base lines of a person’s physicals traits and disposition.

(I’m a big fan of time travel movies, like Back to the Future, but there’s always been that lingering question of why, if they’re lives are totally different, did they still have Marty? That question, along with some time-travel musings of my own, kind of morphed into this question.)

 

[Gorgias]

I have been wondering recently if perhaps the form of our souls is already pre-determined by God

So, since you’re asserting a particular distinction, it might help to know how you perceive the distinction between “the soul” and “the form of the soul”.

God gave my son all the particular physical characteristics he has

I would disagree with this assertion. You and your spouse gave your son his physical characteristics. They proceeded from your physical make-up. (Yes, you were cooperating with God, and God is the primary causal agent, but you and your spouse provided the secondary causation necessary for your son’s existence.)

would God have always chosen those characteristics, regardless of the moment of conception

You seem to be asking whether God would always have ‘chosen’ one particular egg and one particular sperm, regardless of the time of conception. That doesn’t seem to hold up to reason.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

So, since you’re asserting a particular distinction, it might help to know how you perceive the distinction between “the soul” and “the form of the soul”.

I guess I’d say the form of the soul includes things such as sex and the physical expressions of the person (since we are body-soul composite), as well as things like baseline mood and disposition. For instance, I was a fairly calm baby, whereas my sister was very prone to crying.

I would disagree with this assertion. You and your spouse gave your son his physical characteristics. They proceeded from your physical make-up. (Yes, you were cooperating with God, and God is the primary causal agent, but you and your spouse provided the secondary causation necessary for your son’s existence.)

I agree that the characteristics are the result of mine and my wife’s genetic combination. However, I contend that the specific selection of genetic markers is God’s doing, rather than being purely random chance. Genetically, my son could have my eye or my wife’s eye. God made the final determination that he would have my wife’s eyes.

You seem to be asking whether God would always have ‘chosen’ one particular egg and one particular sperm, regardless of the time of conception. That doesn’t seem to hold up to reason.

I’m questioning if the specific egg and sperm are actually all that relevant to the final outcome from a theological perspective. Each egg contains the whole of my wife’s genetic material, and each sperm contains the whole of my own. The combination of these two genetic lines in a specific way results in a unique human being, but I’m wondering if that combination is truly random, or if I, as the first child of my parents, would have always had the unique genetic structure that I have now.

I wonder if, no matter when I, as the first child, was conceived, I would be the same soul I am today.

 

[Wesrock]

ProdglArchitect:

would God have always chosen those characteristics, regardless of the moment of conception

You seem to be asking whether God would always have ‘chosen’ one particular egg and one particular sperm, regardless of the time of conception. That doesn’t seem to hold up to reason.

I agree. To continue off of this, God’s eternal plan was for that specific combination at that moment. The timing is as much a part of the plan (and related to those characteristics) as the characteristics are.

So it’s kind of like asking “if God’s plan for me was different would his plan (for me) be different?” There’s an error in the starting premise of the question.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

So it’s kind of like asking “if God’s plan for me was different would his plan (for me) be different?” There’s an error in the starting premise of the question.

I think what I’m asking is that, given that God’s omniscience contains both all actuality and all potential, would I have been the same in a different potentiality. If my parent’s had had their first child a year before they did, would I, as that first child, still be me, or would I be fundamentally different?

 

[Gorgias]

I guess I’d say the form of the soul includes things such as sex and the physical expressions of the person

Hmm… so, what you’re asking is “before my body existed, did its characteristics exist?”…? I would say “no”.

On the other hand, if you’re asking whether God is omniscient, then the answer is “yes”… but I don’t think that means what you think it means.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Hmm… so, what you’re asking is “before my body existed, did its characteristics exist?”…? I would say “no”.

On the other hand, if you’re asking whether God is omniscient, then the answer is “yes”… but I don’t think that means what you think it means

Well, no, I’m not just curious about the physicality. That’s one aspect of it, but there’s also the aspect of identity. Does the moment of conception change the fundamental reality of the soul that is created. Could I have been a woman instead, or was I always going to be a man regardless of the moment of conception…

Since God has a specific plan for everyone, even though I wasn’t created before I was conceived, did God know and determine all the specific attributes I had at birth from eternity?

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

So it’s kind of like asking “if God’s plan for me was different would his plan (for me) be different?” There’s an error in the starting premise of the question.

I think what I’m asking is that, given that God’s omniscience contains both all actuality and all potential, would I have been the same in a different potentiality. If my parent’s had had their first child a year before they did, would I, as that first child, still be me, or would I be fundamentally different?

I understand your question, but it seems to me still to be just asking if God’s plan would be different if his plan was different. It’s a bit of a nonsense hypothetical, or at best an “I don’t know.” If you’re already supposing that God did other than he did, there’s really no reason it wouldn’t follow in the hypothetical that he wouldn’t or couldn’t have done other when it came to “you” and have it be a completely new person instead of you.

 

[Wesrock]

Since God has a specific plan for everyone, even though I wasn’t created before I was conceived, did God know and determine all the specific attributes I had a birth from eternity?

Yes.

10 characters.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I know it’s not really an important question, I’ve just been reflecting on my life, and all the millions of events that lead to me having my son. I love my son, and I really can’t imagine what it would be like for him to different than he is. And yet, if everything is random and God just works within the random combination of genes, then that means that my son could have been altogether different than he is, and for some reason that bothers me a lot…

Not enough to challenge my faith or anything, nothing like that. I just find it preoccupying my mind a lot recently…

 

[ProdglArchitect]

ProdglArchitect:

Since God has a specific plan for everyone, even though I wasn’t created before I was conceived, did God know and determine all the specific attributes I had a birth from eternity?

Yes.

10 characters.

So then do you think, had I been conceived on a different night, that I would still fundamentally be me, in all that entails?

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

ProdglArchitect:

Since God has a specific plan for everyone, even though I wasn’t created before I was conceived, did God know and determine all the specific attributes I had a birth from eternity?

Yes.

10 characters.

So then do you think, had I been conceived on a different night, that I would still fundamentally be me, in all that entails?

No.

We’re talking two different frames of reference here between the two questions.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

We’re talking two different frames of reference here between the two questions.

Fair enough.

 

[Wesrock]

It was God’s eternal plan that you be conceived when and how and with what you did, and done so in anticipation of and enabling of your parent’s own God-given agency.

But if God’s eternal plan had been different for your parents then… well, it would be different. If it’s different he very well may have had a different child in mind than you for them. But it wasn’t different and he chose you from all eternity. It wasn’t an “accident” or coincidence for God, even if on our natural end of things with our agency it could be to us.

Timing and the natural order of things (including biology) is as much a a part of his plan as everything else.

 

[whatistrue]

Each egg contains the whole of my wife’s genetic material, and each sperm contains the whole of my own.

Half, not whole. Your half and her half combine to make a whole new person (or body for a new person anyway).

 

[Gorgias]

Does the moment of conception change the fundamental reality of the soul that is created. Could I have been a woman instead, or was I always going to be a man regardless of the moment of conception…

Does an immaterial, purely spirit entity such as a soul have the property of ‘gender’? I think I’d say that you as a person have gender, but that spirits do not. (The sticking point in the discussion comes from the fact that we are a soul/body composite, and therefore, it’s difficult to think about the soul in different terms as the body. However, just as we wouldn’t assign spiritual properties to the body, per se, we wouldn’t assign physical properties to the soul, properly speaking.

did God know and determine all the specific attributes I had at birth from eternity

That answer depends on what you mean by ‘determine’. Did God know of them eternally? Yes. Did He actively take all causal action to make it so? I’d say “no” – your parents, through their act of procreation, provided the genetic material which, in that act, determined your gender, etc, etc.

if everything is random and God just works within the random combination of genes, then that means that my son could have been altogether different than he is, and for some reason that bothers me a lot

‘Arbitrary’, not ‘random’. Subtle difference, there.

I hear what you’re saying about it being ‘troubling’, but I think there’s a different way of looking at it: you and your son are not meaningless combinations of atoms – rather, by immediately creating your soul and your son’s soul, God has created you as a person in His image and likeness and with the goal that you attain to heaven. In that respect, there’s no arbitrary characteristics!

 

[tafan2]

So, since God gave my son all the particular physical characteristics he has, would God have always chosen those characteristics, regardless of the moment of conception?

The answer is, of course He did. God’s plan for His entire creation was conceived in eternity, and was done outside of time. It “instantaneously” accounted for every decision we make, every thing that would occur. I places instantaneously in quotes, because even that word implies a temporal factor relative to God’s actions, but it is the best I can do to make my point. So relative to our world, there was no “form of your soul” prior to you conception. But in eternity, yes it existed.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Half, not whole. Your half and her half combine to make a whole new person (or body for a new person anyway).

Each egg and sperm contains the sum of each person’s genetic code, from which each parent provides half for the new life. That is why it is possible for each child to receive different combinations of each parent’s genetic traits. If the trait were not all present, then only specific combinations would be possible.

Or am I remembering that wrong? It’s been a number of years since biology class.

Does an immaterial, purely spirit entity such as a soul have the property of ‘gender’?

I was under the impression that the Church taught that our souls are, in fact, gendered. I have a male soul, my wife has a female soul. That is an intrinsic aspect of our natures. Am I wrong about that?

you and your son are not meaningless combinations of atoms

I did not mean to say that we are meaningless. I was just questioning if God selected our specific physical characteristics, or if our characteristics were result of the combination of genetics, which God then incorporates when he creates our soul.

 

[Gorgias]

Or am I remembering that wrong? It’s been a number of years since biology class.

I think so. Each egg and each sperm contain only 23 chromosomes.

I was under the impression that the Church taught that our souls are, in fact, gendered.

As I was typing my response to you, I was thinking about debates like those. I think that we’d say that the person is gendered, and therefore, you cannot say that it is appropriate for the soul that is part of a male person to be associated with a female person. However, there’s a certain nuance in play.

I have a male soul, my wife has a female soul. That is an intrinsic aspect of our natures. Am I wrong about that?

I would say that you are a male person and she is a female person, and in your human nature, you are gendered. However, you wouldn’t say that other physical characteristics are intrinsically part of your soul, would you? Is your soul caucasian? Or blond? Or fat or skinny? Intuitively, we’d say “no”, wouldn’t you agree?

I was just questioning if God selected our specific physical characteristics, or if our characteristics were result of the combination of genetics, which God then incorporates when he creates our soul.

I think that I’d say that the physical, genetic part is ‘determined’ by our parents’ cooperation with God in the act of procreation.

 

[whatistrue]

Or am I remembering that wrong?

Yes, you are remembering that wrong. The division and selection (for lack of a better term) of which parts of the individual genome end up in the offspring happen when the egg or sperm are formed. Google mitosis vs meiosis.