The Problem of Evil

[Arizona_Mike]

I don’t see how misdirecting a bullet or causing the gun to jam is taking away the free will of the perp. The perp would still be guilty of making a free choice in attempting to kill someone – they just wouldn’t be successful. IIRC, Peter and Paul were both miraculously saved from their persecutors. Did God take away the free will of their jailers?

Why is the free will of a perp more important to God than the free will of a victim not to be victimized?

God created a world that runs - most of the time, along principles of clearly recognized cause and effect. If you hit your thumb with a hammer, it will cause pain. The planets move in their courses. The shifting of tectonic plates that cause earthquakes also regulate the temperature of the planet and allow all life to exist. The lioness that feeds on the gazelle causes the death of the gazelle, but also feeds the lioness and her cubs. A .40 caliber bullet entering a body will cause immense damage.

If God routinely altered the laws of our universe to prevent suffering, we could not make moral choices for good and evil, as evil could not happen. There would be no suffering, but also no compassion. There would be no death, but also no heroism. We would be naught else but happy, smiling robots, or, to use the Cockney phrase that Catholic author Anthony Burgess used for a novel, “clockwork oranges” - things that were meant to be full of juice and life that are really just full of cogs and gears, without the capacity for evil but also without the capacity for good.

We as Catholics do believe that God has, and does, intervene in some circumstances to prevent evil; clearly, He did so about 2000 years ago, and based on the miracles of the Saints continues to do so today. God is not only the Maker but the Sustainer of the universe, and we have no idea of how many acts of suffering and evil God may prevent day to day through His direct actions or the actions of His angels (and through his lesser moral agent, i.e., us). The suffering that we see and experience may be the very smallest percentage of the chaos and pain that would exist in a universe without God’s providence.

We have an answer for suffering, and it’s a good one. It’s the only one that makes sense. A materialist view of the world has no answer, and moreover denies the question - there is no objective good and evil in a strictly materialist worldview, and the suffering of others does not matter except in a physiological sense. If you are a materialist and believe otherwise, you’re driving in a car you borrowed from someone else.

We believe that, ultimately, all things will be made right, that good will be rewarded through Gods love, and evil punished through God’s justice. We shall know and meet all whom we love again, if we follow God’s commandments. We also believe that God can make good come from suffering, whether through offering it up in communion with Christ’s passion, by offering up our own suffering as a substitute for the suffering and purification of our brothers and sisters in Purgatory, or through coming more closely to share in Christ’s burden.

We are the disciples of a crucified master, and we should not expect suffering to be a stranger in our lives.

We also recognize that, as way leads on to way and paths fork into other paths, we can have no clear image of how individual instances of suffering and evil may ultimately be directed and guided to a greater good. I know in my personal life, there were many events that I cursed bitterly and saw no need for, and I asked God why they had happened to me. Looking back, I am in awe of how those instances often worked to the ultimate good of myself and others, in ways that seem quite clear and understandable now but which were completely inexplicable to me then. Those whom I love and who have passed on, the lessons they taught me by their own suffering, and what I experienced and felt in their death, changed me and brought me closer to God, and I hope and pray that my death may do the same.

We can curse the lesson, but bless the knowledge.

 

[kingpomba]

As for me, whether it is answered of not has no bearing on my faith.

Why is this, purely out of interest?

And as for the problem, I know why God couldn’t stop a murderer from pulling the trigger of a gun aimed at an innocent–free will, never to be violated no matter the consequence.

I strongly disagree. In academic philosophy, where the God most of the time is a generic omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God, i’m prevented from drawing this conclusion. However, in Christian theology, it’s quite a different matter.

What you contend is that it’s impossible for God to interfere in free will without “breaking” free will or free will ceasing to exist, i contend it isn’t.

We have many examples but i will only offer one - The Story of Pharaoh. It is quite clear Pharaoh was intent on carrying out his genocidal plans, it was what he willed. Yet, God interfered and stopped Pharaoh from exercising his will. If we draw out the general principal from this story, God interfering in free will does not “break” free will.

If he could stop Pharaoh i can’t see any reason why it would be impossible for him to stop the murderer pulling the trigger in your example. He may choose not to or have good reason not to but thats a quite different matter from it being impossible.

I think you might even hint at this by suggesting why does God not stop the bullet or jam the gun.

God as an omnibenevolent (aka maximally benevolent) being acts to prevent evil and maximise good as part of his essential nature, some may argue miracles are rare but this is quite beside the point of why God chooses not to act (even though it is possible that he can, as evidenced by Pharaoh and the examples given by others in this thread) in the face of evil and suffering.

 

[tonyrey]

God created a world that runs - most of the time, along principles of clearly recognized cause and effect. If you hit your thumb with a hammer, it will cause pain. The planets move in their courses. The shifting of tectonic plates that cause earthquakes also regulate the temperature of the planet and allow all life to exist. The lioness that feeds on the gazelle causes the death of the gazelle, but also feeds the lioness and her cubs. A .40 caliber bullet entering a body will cause immense damage.

If God routinely altered the laws of our universe to prevent suffering, we could not make moral choices for good and evil, as evil could not happen. There would be no suffering, but also no compassion. There would be no death, but also no heroism. We would be naught else but happy, smiling robots, or, to use the Cockney phrase that Catholic author Anthony Burgess used for a novel, “clockwork oranges” - things that were meant to be full of juice and life that are really just full of cogs and gears, without the capacity for evil but also without the capacity for good.

We as Catholics do believe that God has, and does, intervene in some circumstances to prevent evil; clearly, He did so about 2000 years ago, and based on the miracles of the Saints continues to do so today. God is not only the Maker but the Sustainer of the universe, and we have no idea of how many acts of suffering and evil God may prevent day to day through His direct actions or the actions of His angels (and through his lesser moral agent, i.e., us). The suffering that we see and experience may be the very smallest percentage of the chaos and pain that would exist in a universe without God’s providence.

We have an answer for suffering, and it’s a good one. It’s the only one that makes sense. A materialist view of the world has no answer, and moreover denies the question - there is no objective good and evil in a strictly materialist worldview, and the suffering of others does not matter except in a physiological sense. If you are a materialist and believe otherwise, you’re driving in a car you borrowed from someone else.

We believe that, ultimately, all things will be made right, that good will be rewarded through Gods love, and evil punished through God’s justice. We shall know and meet all whom we love again, if we follow God’s commandments. We also believe that God can make good come from suffering, whether through offering it up in communion with Christ’s passion, by offering up our own suffering as a substitute for the suffering and purification of our brothers and sisters in Purgatory, or through coming more closely to share in Christ’s burden.

We are the disciples of a crucified master, and we should not expect suffering to be a stranger in our lives.

We also recognize that, as way leads on to way and paths fork into other paths, we can have no clear image of how individual instances of suffering and evil may ultimately be directed and guided to a greater good. I know in my personal life, there were many events that I cursed bitterly and saw no need for, and I asked God why they had happened to me. Looking back, I am in awe of how those instances often worked to the ultimate good of myself and others, in ways that seem quite clear and understandable now but which were completely inexplicable to me then. Those whom I love and who have passed on, the lessons they taught me by their own suffering, and what I experienced and felt in their death, changed me and brought me closer to God, and I hope and pray that my death may do the same.

We can curse the lesson, but bless the knowledge.

A superb post!

 

[Christianus_Dei]

Why is this, purely out of interest?

Because I know there is an answer, whether or not it’s hard to understand, and it would be sepremely arrogant to assume there isn’t one because I haven’t found it. And yes, that is a Star Trek misquote, but I find it voices my answer succinctly. Also because faith is a matter of revelation, not blind trust. Also, it doesn’t work philosophically and logically for the first cause to be anything less than eternally perfect.

I strongly disagree. In academic philosophy, where the God most of the time is a generic omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God, i’m prevented from drawing this conclusion. However, in Christian theology, it’s quite a different matter.

What you contend is that it’s impossible for God to interfere in free will without “breaking” free will or free will ceasing to exist, i contend it isn’t.

We have many examples but i will only offer one - The Story of Pharaoh. It is quite clear Pharaoh was intent on carrying out his genocidal plans, it was what he willed. Yet, God interfered and stopped Pharaoh from exercising his will. If we draw out the general principal from this story, God interfering in free will does not “break” free will.

I was referring to concepts such as mind control and others.

 

[kingpomba]

I was referring to concepts such as mind control and others.

I think you had some trouble in doing the quote tags and this at least seems to be the only thing you said (apologies if i missed anything).

I don’t consider this a serious or decisive objection to what i presented. The whole basis of the free will defense is God.

Don’t stamp out moral evil using mind control, he certainly didn’t for Pharaoh who was committing a kind of moral evil (genocide). So, mind control need not be a method for stopping gross moral evil, as shown above, he certainly can stop it, he just chooses not to. If he was in Egypt stopping moral evil of a depraved leader, where was God in Auschwitz?

It’s certainly metaphysically possible that he could (Re: Pharaoh) however, he chose not to, why?

The best historical and textual evidence shows us there were at least as many Jewish lives at risk under Pharaoh compared to those that actually died under hitler, indeed, probably significantly more than this number. Assuming the lives of the modern Jewish people aren’t somehow more worthless compared to those of the biblical, you have to ask why God stopped a brutal mass killing once but did nothing to prevent a bigger one.

 

[kingpomba]

Unable to edit my post for some reason, i often write things in bits and pieces and edit it after im done to finish, seems like a chunk went unfinished here.

Get rid of this line *The whole basis of the free will defense is God. *

I cant even remember what i was going for there, obviously unfinished…

"Don’t stamp out moral evil using mind control, " was in reference to the quote at the top of the post, God can prevent or stop moral evil in ways other than mind control is the point i was trying to make.