The Propehts(pbuh) Last Sermon

[Faith101]

exoflare:

He can’t lie because he’s inherently good. There’s no limitation on him coming down as a human, unless he was inherently stuck-up.

As to WHY he chose to do this… that’s a whole different topic.

He can’t lie b/c he’s inherently good. He cant come down on the earth b/c He is inherently all-powerful and nothing can harm him

I dont expect you to agree. But at least you can see it from a Muslim’s perspective on the “God can do anything” support for him coming down to earth just does not make sense

peace

 

[exoflare]

Faith, I really don’t think you see the big picture. What happens to Jesus’ body, even as God does not affect the condition of God. It seems you can’t understand the fact that God “dying” doesn’t mean that God ceases to exist. Even with us, what happens to our bodies is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. They are merely physical shells that temporarily manifest our soul.

 

[Shenango]

exoflare:

Faith, I really don’t think you see the big picture. What happens to Jesus’ body, even as God does not affect the condition of God. It seems you can’t understand the fact that God “dying” doesn’t mean that God ceases to exist. Even with us, what happens to our bodies is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. They are merely physical shells that temporarily manifest our soul.

This is a good point. An “Introduction To Christianity” book or class for Muslims should be preceeded by one in Greek metaphysics. The metaphysics of Christianity is based on this, unlike those of Judaism and Islam, which are based on a Semitic understanding.

But a question that comes to my mind often, then is: what is the victory of life over death that is so celebrated in the Resurrection? What’s so special about it? The fact that people found out that God really can’t be killed? It’s not news to me that God’s eternal. What kind of fantastic achievement, really, is raising from the dead someone who could never really die in the first place? It’s certainly not one that could atone (act as payment) for anything…much less the sins of humanity. Seems to me like God played a little trick on himself and people, sending Himself down to earth in the form of a man to be crucified and killed…when in fact, He could never truly be killed to begin with…and then resurrecting and declaring that no-brainer of a feat as atonement for mankind’s sins.

 

[exoflare]

Shenango:

But a question that comes to my mind often, then is: what is the victory of life over death that is so celebrated in the Resurrection? What’s so special about it? The fact that people found out that God really can’t be killed?

Once again, as I so often find myself having to do, I must ask you: “where in Christian teaching did you read this?”

Or was it only conjecture? But I guess it was sort of clever to try and take the subject of the argument and ever-so-slyly try to transition it to being the basis of the whole Catholic faith.

And yet, it seems the rest of your entire post here is just more speculation on this belief that you just took the liberty of projecting all by yourself onto the Catholic Church anyway.

For others reading this (because I know you are already well aware of the very trick you were trying to play here), bear in mind that the belief I speak of here is not that of the fact that God is eternal, but the idea that this is the entire reason that the Resurrection is celebrated as it is.

Shenango:

It’s not news to me that God’s eternal. What kind of fantastic achievement, really, is raising from the dead someone who could never really die in the first place? It’s certainly not one that could atone (act as payment) for anything…much less the sins of humanity. Seems to me like God played a little trick on himself and people, sending Himself down to earth in the form of a man to be crucified and killed…when in fact, He could never truly be killed to begin with…and then resurrecting and declaring that no-brainer of a feat as atonement for mankind’s sins.

Like I said just now, it’s easy to set up a straw-man yourself and then knock it down. It won’t prove anything. If you want to ask in another thread the separate question of WHY Jesus would choose to die for mankind’s sins, or how it worked, then go right ahead.

But stop trying to mix all these different topics to throw everyone off the real subject of the question. This has become all too common last resort on this board when people haven’t been able to come up with a sufficient reply to back up their original argument.

 

[hlgomez]

Can God lie? If you say no, then you are putting limitations on God. If you say yes, then please explain

Faith101,

How do you equate this question of God becoming a human being?
Are you saying God lied because he assumed a human nature?

Pio

 

[exoflare]

hlgomez:

Faith101,

How do you equate this question of God becoming a human being?
Are you saying God lied because he assumed a human nature?

Pio

That wasn’t it. She was trying to parallel that question with our assertion that “if you say God could not become a human being, you are putting limitations on him”…

The problem was that in the case of lying, we know God would not lie (even though he certainly has the ability to do so) because he is inherently good. There’s no such reason to say he could never assume human form.

 

[Booklover]

exoflare:

That wasn’t it. She was trying to parallel that question with our assertion that “if you say God could not become a human being, you are putting limitations on him”…

The problem was that in the case of lying, we know God would not lie (even though he certainly has the ability to do so) because he is inherently good. There’s no such reason to say he could never assume human form.

But that’s their whole problem! If they could admit that God can become human, all Mohammed’s claims would collapse like a house of cards!

 

[exoflare]

Booklover:

But that’s their whole problem! If they could admit that God can become human, all Mohammed’s claims would collapse like a house of cards!

Well, that may be oversimplifying it, but yeah that admission would not exactly help their cause.

 

[Ahimsa]

Booklover:

But that’s their whole problem! If they could admit that God can become human, all Mohammed’s claims would collapse like a house of cards!

Actually, God didn’t become fully human, according to Christianity. Only God the Son became human; God the Father remained totally transcendent.

So, both Muslims and Christians are correct: God (the Father) can never become human, and God (the Son) did become human.

 

[exoflare]

Ahimsa:

Actually, God didn’t become fully human, according to Christianity. Only God the Son became human; God the Father remained totally transcendent.

So, both Muslims and Christians are correct: God (the Father) can never become human, and God (the Son) did become human.

Sure, ok.

 

[Fergal]

A little correction on the above post . Jesus Christ is the one God made Man.

God the Father is totally spirit

INCARNATION - Enfleshment - God taking on human form in the person of Jesus Christ. He took upon Himself not only the nature of man, a nature capable of suffering and sickness and death, He became like a man in all save only sin (cf. Suarez, “De Incarnatione”, Praef. n. 5).

Since there is only one God we affirm that He did become fully human whilst remaining fully God.

 

[Reuben_J]

Faith101:

what does “the end” mean?

how do you understand these verses

“But now i am going away to the one who sent me, and none of you has asked me where i am going. Instead you are very sad. But it is actualy best for you that I go away because if i dont, the Counselor, wont come” (John 16:5)

"Oh there is so much more I want to tell you but you can’t bear it now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas, he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. (John17:12-13)

It seems to me that Jesus peace be upon him was telling his disciples that there is someone else coming to guide them. Someone who wont be presenting his own ideas but just relaying the message he receives from God.

sounds a lot like this…

And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad (Quran 61:6)

I know we are going to disagree, and you’ll have your own interpretations. I have come to the conclusion that the idea that Jesus is God/son of God and the idea that he is NOT can both be argued effectively using the Bible.

So, lets just all pray to God to guide us to the truth.

Nice try. It would be nice if the Spirit of truth was indeed Muhammad. It would be good justification for Muhammad and the claim about him.

Sadly it won’t work that way my friend. Bible maybe is difficult to understand sometimes, but most times what’s mentioned there is obvious.

If you want to use the Bible to prove the prophecy of the coming of Muhammad, you are not going to get it right.

Don’t take isolated verses in the Bible out of context but understand what the message of the Bible is in totality. Many Islamic doctrines do make sense to me, but this one is pushing it over board. Just whom are we trying to kid?

Muhammad is NOT spirit and can never be. Unless this is new Islamic theology!

The answer is obvious as explained by the Christians here. It is the Holy Spirit. Look out for other verses. Read the Bible in full.

Sorry, I guess I’m carried away. Yes, we can still argue over this, but to me, by doing this you are doing Islam a disfavour, because I have some good opinions on Islam before this. And it has not changed yet. But this certainly doesn’t help enhanced it at all.

Peace.

Reuben

 

[exoflare]

Well, I wasn’t completely serious. The post I was replying to was only meant as a distraction.