The Protestant problem

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Shibboleth:
Okee-dokee… The reason for my statement was to show that the original premise of the argument had a small flaw.

Have I heard of Sola Fide?

I am guessing that quite a few people on this board laughed when they read that question about me…. I might suggest you do a search on some of my posts in that area.
Sorry. I have no idea what you know about sola fide. It means “faith alone” and Catholics believe that we need faith AND works. I hope that answers your question, if you were asking one. My understanding of sola fide is “I’m saved, Jesus saved me, I need to do nothing in order to go to heaven.” That goes against the Bible, which says that we need to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, spread the Good News, etc.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
 
se~orcampana:
Here is my biggest problem with the Protestant church, whatever denomination: Methodist, Baptist, Calvinist, Southern Baptist disguised as non denominational “Bible Churches” Fee-Will, Reformed Methodist,…etc.

Ironically being a Protestant, I’ll present my case:

The Bible is the word of God(I agree with this wholeheartedly). The New Testament was not cannonized till the second council of Carthage in 393(I think) This means that Revelations and Hebrews were still disputed till Augustine and some others pushed for their connonization at Carthage. (This is how I read the history, sorry to scholars if it has mistakes!)

This means ALL Christian Churches give total loyalty to that Council whether they acknowledge it or not!

Here is the kicker: Did the “authentic” church suddenly dissolve after that council? It could not have!!
Could you explain why you think being a Protestant involves believing that the “authentic” church dissolved after 393? I see absolutely no reason why one is obliged to believe that.

I remain a Protestant not because I think the Church dissolved after 393 or at any other point before the Reformation, but because I don’t think it dissolved (for Protestants) at the Reformation.

Edwin
 
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coralewisjr:
Sorry. I have no idea what you know about sola fide. It means “faith alone” and Catholics believe that we need faith AND works. I hope that answers your question, if you were asking one. My understanding of sola fide is “I’m saved, Jesus saved me, I need to do nothing in order to go to heaven.”
Then you need to become better informed instead of parroting misrepresentations of Protestantism.

Edwin
 
Sorry. I have no idea what you know about sola fide. It means “faith alone” and Catholics believe that we need faith AND works. I hope that answers your question, if you were asking one. My understanding of sola fide is “I’m saved, Jesus saved me, I need to do nothing in order to go to heaven.” That goes against the Bible, which says that we need to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, spread the Good News, etc.
I am well versed in Sola Fide, Sola Gracia, and Sola Scriptura… I have made many comments on the subject. In regards to Sola Fide though I might suggest that you do an online search for the Joint Doctrine of Justification… It was a joint effort by Lutherans and Catholics to come to a better understanding of the issue of Sola Fide and what not…

The finding was that once fully understood there really wasn’t much to argue about.
 
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Contarini:
Then you need to become better informed instead of parroting misrepresentations of Protestantism.

Edwin
Please inform me. I have some Protestant friends and sometimes it feels like I’m talking to a wall. No offense is meant.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
 
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DeFide:
So in Mt 18:15-17 where Jesus says to take an offending brother to the Church as the final authority, where do you go?
simple… to a community of believers
 
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bkniceley:
simple… to a community of believers
Simple? hardly…which group of believers?

Reason I ask this is because different groups of believers believe different things depening on their transalation of the bible or their interpretation, or how they were “taught” growing up.

There was only one church with authority given by Christ. There were many “churches” per say, but only one in communion with the one in Rome and led by the Apostles (authority give by Christ) and their successors.
 
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bkniceley:
simple… to a community of believers
That’s not what Jesus said. Jesus said to take him to THE church, not a church. Jesus did not establish competing systems of truth. The final authority of the church isn’t final if you can pick any “community of believers” you want. Even in the case you suggest, do you simply take a poll of any community? What if your brother wants to poll a different “community of believers”?
 
se~orcampana:
Here is my biggest problem with the Protestant church, whatever denomination: Methodist, Baptist, Calvinist, Southern Baptist disguised as non denominational “Bible Churches” Fee-Will, Reformed Methodist,…etc.

Ironically being a Protestant, I’ll present my case:

The Bible is the word of God(I agree with this wholeheartedly). The New Testament was not cannonized till the second council of Carthage in 393(I think) This means that Revelations and Hebrews were still disputed till Augustine and some others pushed for their connonization at Carthage. (This is how I read the history, sorry to scholars if it has mistakes!)

This means ALL Christian Churches give total loyalty to that Council whether they acknowledge it or not!

Here is the kicker: Did the “authentic” church suddenly dissolve after that council? It could not have!!

If I made any sense with my rambling I’d love your thoughts on the matter.
👍

Cristo es mi Rey
Who gave us the bible? The Church or God?

Do you assume because God protected His word, he gave carte blanche to the people holding it? Do you praise the publisher or the author of a book?
 
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ruzz:
Who gave us the bible? The Church or God?

Do you assume because God protected His word, he gave carte blanche to the people holding it? Do you praise the publisher or the author of a book?
While it’s certainly good to praise God, that’s unrelated to your previous question. In this case the Author tells us that the Church, not the individual, is the final authority with regard to applying his revelation.

Mt 28:18-20 - Jesus delegates all power to Apostles
Jn 20:23 - power to forgive sin
1Cor 11:23-24 - power to offer sacrifice (Eucharist)
Lk 10:16 - power to speak with Christ’s voice
Mt 18:18 - power to legislate
Mt 18:17 - power to discipline

‘If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. . . . But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you. . . . If he refuses to listen . . . tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector’ (Mt 18:15-17).

The Bible is very clear to me about what to do if we have a disagreement with one another over some issue pertaining to the Faith. And please remember: To lead someone into heresy is a grievous sin against your brother according to Galatians 5:19-21! The Bible tells us that the Church, not the Bible, is the final court of appeal.
 
The authors of the Bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus gave us His Church on earth and created its structure. The Bishops in the Catholic Church are the apostles’ successors. As we were promised that the Holy Spirit would always protect His Church and that we would be led to all Truth, the Catholic Church retains the “deposit of faith” left to us from the apostles. So, who gave us the Bible- the Church or God? The Holy Spirit inspired the apostles. So the answer is, God gave us the Bible through His Church.
 
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Eden:
Jesus gave us His Church on earth and created its structure.
Where did Jesus build a church? Was it in Jeruselem? Rome? Is it there today? What happend to Jesus’ first church He built?

Where did Jesus define the structure of this church? I know about the 12 apostles, but where did Jesus talk about sucession?
In fact, can you explain to me where Peter assigned his successor? How much time did Peter spend in Rome?
The Bishops in the Catholic Church are the apostles’ successors.
Besides for those “sucessors” telling us they were the sucessors, how do we know? Can you show me where Peter assigned them authority? Where does Jesus explain succession beyond the 12 apostles? Why did the miracles stop after the 12 died?
So, who gave us the Bible- the Church or God? The Holy Spirit inspired the apostles. So the answer is, God gave us the Bible through His Church.
Do you believe God would NOT have protected those books and His word without the church?

How did the Jews protect the word of God for thousands of years without a pope or central church?
 
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ruzz:
Where did Jesus build a church? Was it in
Jerusalem? Rome? Is it there today?
I’m not sure what you mean by church… Physical structure, community of believers, geographical location, or some combination? If you mean something like a “religious capitol” then it ended up with Peter in Rome. Yep, it’s still there.
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ruzz:
What happened to Jesus’ first church He built?
I don’t know what you mean by “first church”. As I understand it, God created one religion called Judaism. Catholicism is Judaism fully revealed by Jesus Christ.
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ruzz:
Where did Jesus define the structure of this church? I know about the 12 apostles, but where did Jesus talk about succession?
Jesus didn’t specifically define “the structure of this church” he left it up to His apostles when he gave them the rabbinical authority of “binding and loosing”. In so doing Jesus effectivley “fired” the current priesthood and replaced it with the guys He hand-picked. Jesus didn’t talk specifically about succession either, but remember though, that Mathias was elected to fill the office of Judas. Read Acts 1:15-26.
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ruzz:
In fact, can you explain to me where Peter assigned his successor? How much time did Peter spend in
Rome?
Try this: newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
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ruzz:
Besides for those “successors” telling us they were the successors, how do we know? Can you show me where Peter assigned them authority? Where does Jesus explain succession beyond the 12 apostles?
Try this: newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
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ruzz:
Why did the miracles stop after the 12 died?
They haven’t stopped, miracles still happen today. They aren’t as spectacular, but they still happen.
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ruzz:
Do you believe God would NOT have protected those books and His word without the church?
Of course He would, but I don’t see how you can separate the two – His church taught His Word. His Word was eventually written down and compiled into the books forming the bible. And yes, God would protect it to the extent that even the “gates of hell shall not prevail against it”.
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ruzz:
How did the Jews protect the word of God for thousands of years without a pope or central church?
There was a central “church”, the Temple in Jerusalem, local synagogs, scribes, a priesthood and a high priest. All as commanded by God in the Old Testament.
 
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DeFide:
That’s not what Jesus said. Jesus said to take him to THE church, not a church.
Dont u realize there was only one church back then? The church of rome… the catholic church which u presume it to be. However nowhere in the bible is there a record of roman catholicism or any of the protestant churches of the present day. All these religions came as men altered the original pattern of the church. There were many unauthorized additions to which have been added such as penance and purgatory and many others. You cannot tell me that these were practiced in the original church. These practices came too late for them to even be considered as part of the original church or apostolic in this case. It wasnt til a few hundred years later that the Roman Catholic hierarchy came to be… far pass the times of the apostles of which you claim that all of your tradition came from. The church is made up of us… humans who sin and fall down all the time. We are the ones that make the alterations. So you must then be asking what is the church now? Our society today is much different than it was back then. Now there are tons of churches of christ none of which were part of the original church. Does that mean that the church of christ does not exist today? Of course not… Christ built the church and is it’s head. Look at the book of acts:

And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
(Acts 2:47 KJV)

Jesus is our savior and those that respond to him and accept him are the ones that will be added to his church. He is the author of his church.
 
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ruzz:
Who gave us the bible? The Church or God?
You cannot seperate the Chruch from God. The Chruch is not some seperate entity independent of God. Who gave us the bible? God did. Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, those whom God chose as His authors put into writing His Word. Later on another group of folks got together and also under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit collected those writings into one volume called the Bible.
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ruzz:
Do you praise the publisher or the author of a book?
I would worship God, honor His authors, and say “good job” to the folks who put it all under one cover.
 
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bkniceley:
Dont u realize there was only one church back then? The church of rome… the catholic church which u presume it to be. However nowhere in the bible is there a record of roman catholicism or any of the protestant churches of the present day.
Are you asking for documentation that the Catholic Church is 2,000 years old and founded by Jesus Christ?

Ignatius of Antioch was the first to record the use of the name “Catholic Church” in 107 A.D. That’s only 73 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus. I don’t know the life expectancy from that time, but it is not unimagineable that some people living at the time that Ignatius’ recorded the name “Catholic Church” would have been alive when Jesus walked the earth. Historians believe that the use of the name was in use for some time before Ignatius recorded it- possibly from the beginning.

“The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, “the Catholic Church,” at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.” - From “Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth”
catholic.com/library/pillar.asp

The Ignatian letters are wonderful proof for those who challenge the fact that the Catholic Church is the Church established by Christ:

(from New Advent)

Contents of the letters It is scarcely possible to exaggerate the importance of the testimony which the Ignatian letters offer to the dogmatic character of Apostolic Christianity. The martyred Bishop of Antioch constitutes a most important link between the Apostles and the Fathers of the early Church. **Receiving from the Apostles themselves, whose auditor he was, not only the substance of revelation, but also their own inspired interpretation of it; dwelling, as it were, at the very fountain-head of Gospel truth, his testimony must necessarily carry with it the greatest weight and demand the most serious consideration. **Cardinal Newman did not exaggerate the matter when he said (“The Theology of the Seven Epistles of St. Ignatius”, in “Historical Sketches”, I, London, 1890) that “the whole system of Catholic doctrine may be discovered, at least in outline, not to say in parts filled up, in the course of his seven epistles”. Among the many Catholic doctrines to be found in the letters are the following: the Church was Divinely established as a visible society, the salvation of souls is its end, and those who separate themselves from it cut themselves off from God (Philad., c. iii); the hierarchy of the Church was instituted by Christ (lntrod. to Philad.; Ephes., c. vi); the threefold character of the hierarchy (Magn., c. vi); the order of the episcopacy superior by Divine authority to that of the priesthood (Magn., c. vi, c. xiii; Smyrn., c. viii;. Trall., .c. iii);the unity of the Church (Trall., c. vi;Philad., c. iii; Magn., c. xiii);the holiness of the Church (Smyrn., Ephes., Magn., Trall., and Rom.); the catholicity of the Church (Smyrn., c. viii); the infallibility of the Church (Philad., c. iii; Ephes., cc. xvi, xvii); the doctrine of the Eucharist (Smyrn., c. viii), which word we find for the first time applied to the Blessed Sacrament, just as in Smyrn., viii, we meet for the first time the phrase “Catholic Church”, used to designate all Christians; the Incarnation (Ephes., c. xviii); the supernatural virtue of virginity, already much esteemed and made the subject of a vow (Polyc., c. v); the religious character of matrimony (Polyc., c. v); the value of united prayer (Ephes., c. xiii); the primacy of the See of Rome (Rom., introd.). He, moreover, denounces in principle the Protestant doctrine of private judgment in matters’ of religion (Philad. c. iii), The heresy against which he chiefly inveighs is Docetism. Neither do the Judaizing heresies escape his vigorous condemnation.
 
Also, here’s a link to see the unbroken succession of popes from Peter to Benedict XVI:

newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

Finally, no other church - even early off-shoots of Christianity in the earliest years that have not survived - has roots back to 33 A.D. and the apostles:

cym.perthcatholic.org.au/whynot/jesusfounded.php

***PROVIDE EVIDENCE SHOWING THAT JESUS FOUNDED CATHOLICISM. ***

Jesus founded Catholicism on the first pope: Peter (Matt 16:18 ). There exists abundant evidence proving that the Early Christian Church was Catholic in faith, worship and government (see the pages entitled: THE EARLY CHURCH WAS CATHOLIC). The date of foundation of every non-Catholic Christian group can be given, and in no case is it 30 AD, and their founder is not Jesus. Only the Catholic Church goes back in every respect to her foundation by Christ Himself. Christ, who is God, founded a Church. He promised it would last to the end of time. Therefore, His Church exists in the world at the present day. Christ imprinted certain marks on His Church so that people could always identify it. No church, therefore, can be His Church, unless it possesses ALL those marks. The Catholic Church alone possesses them. Only the Catholic Church is **one, holy, catholic and apostolic **. (See also Nicene Creed, 325 AD.)

The term “early church” that Protestants use is a euphemism for the Catholic Church.
 
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