The Protestant Reformers View Of Mary

[Prodigal_Son1]

In situation two I said Mary is as the CC believes (I didn’t say what that is so how did I make a mistake or misrepresent what they teach?)​

The question remains: Would it bother Mary more if she has those believe things not true and those beliefs are far more than she really is OR would it bother Mary more to have people believe she was a wonderful ‘Christian’ example of obedience and faith but doesn’t believe Mary is as the CC teaches assuming it is true?

Would it bother her for someone to ‘expose’ a perverted twist of what the Pope said about her to glorify God, for the purposes of demeaning Her Son’s Church? I’ll have to think on that some more…

How does Catholics believing she was perpetually a virgin affect our salvation?

How does Catholics believing she was immaculately conceived affect our salvation?

How does Catholics believing she was the mother of God, because Her Son was God, affect our salvation?

It seemed to be important enough for some to ‘expose’…for what purpose?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

In THAT matter, it’s not.

Lutherans and Catholics agree on Mary’s virginity at the birth of Our Lord and that Our Lady is The Mother of God. Those are doctrines for us both.

SOME Lutherans embrace SOME (and maybe all) modern Catholic Marian views AS PIOUS OPINION. But they are not dogmas for Lutherans. Nor do we regard them as heresies.

For example, my Lutheran pastor (a former Catholic, BTW) embraces the PVM. He told me that some of his fellow pastors do not. I (also a former Catholic) have no position at all on the matter. We’re all Lutherans.

.

There are Catholic dogma that became doctrine because of beliefs became endangered.

So, what’s the difference other than that? How is Catholic salvation impacted by our beliefs?

 

[Bill_Pick]

1. Lutherans do embrace the view of Mary as the Mother of God in this sense: Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God incarnate in the flesh. Ergo, Mary is the mother of God.
2. While it’s generally true that Luther embraced the Marian views OF HIS DAY, he taught none of them as dogma. Protestants have a concept that I think Catholics could benefit from, it’s called “pious opinion.” It is a view or spiritually - perhaps passionately and intensively embraced - that has a strong, historic, ecumenical embrace - but is neither confirmed or rejected by Scripture. It is thus not doctrine, and generally not required. I understand there were Lutheran pastors in Luther’s day that did NOT share the same Marian views that Luther did - and while Luther disagreed with them, they were not excommunicated or defrocked. You will find Lutherans who voted for Obama and Lutherans who voted for McCain - but you’ll find no dogma among us about either.
3. As a Lutheran now, I find it - well, amusing - how Catholics will at times quote Luther as if he was some infallible vicar of Christ or at least a divine Prophet whose words are like Scripture. “Luther said - it’s GOTTA be true!” And then, two sentences later, denounce him as a satanic, heretical, mentally insane man who is to be rejected at every point. Amusing. As a Lutheran, I reject both of those views of him. He was just a man. He put his pants on one leg at a time. Nothin’ holy or satanic about him. A sinner, saved by Christ. Like me. Like you. That’s it.

Thank you.

Pax

• Josiah

.

OK Well thank You for your post ,and have a good night and May Our Lord bless You and yours

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

There seems to be some concern that Catholic beliefs are dogma, or required beliefs, yet we freely belong to the Catholic Church realizing what the required beliefs are. There is freedom in our choices, just as others imply they have a ‘freedom’ to choose. When this is considered, what are the differences?

 

[addictedkoala]

You know what I find hilarious, Muslims care more about Mary than Protestants…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_Mary

Mary, the mother of Jesus, is considered the most righteous woman in Islam. She is the only woman mentioned by name in the Qur’an - her name is mentioned more than it is in the New Testament.
…
Mary is one of the most highly-regarded women in Islam; there are several verses in the Qur’an praising her and confirming that she was an extremely chaste and pious woman.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
1-Silly question; the answer is still no.

It was rhetorical.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
2- yes

Is telling Catholics they are wrong being responsible to yourself?​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
3-a wise studier studies from many sources always focusing on the Bible. However, the Bible much of the Bible is quite straight forward.

Like men of the Church that have dedicated their entire lives to Christ, His Church, Traditions, sciptures and also come from the Church that preserved the scriptures through the ages for it to be in our hands today?

We feel the discussion between Christ and Peter in Matthew 16 is as straight forward as it gets.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
4-It it doens’t contradict the Bible and if it glorifies God, I don’t think it matters.

To call the mother of the Lord blessed as scriptures say, or that her soul magnifies God as scriptures say, or accept that she was full of grace as scriptures say doesn’t glorify God?

Seems we are condemned for any action we believe in and yet we do these thing to glorify God.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
5-What did Jesus mean when speaking to Peter in John 21?

Don’t worry about what I have in mind for Him, you tend my sheep as I told you to do.

What do you think of Jesus’ plan that John, the disciple that He loved, care for His mother in His earthly absence? Also, why would Jesus go against Jewish tradition that the next sibling in line care for the mother, had Mary had other children?​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
6-How do you discern me?

To be honest, I don’t know. Are you a teacher?​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
7-So do I; our understanding of what Jesus meant is different; you seem to believe what your church has said about itself.

Yet, Matthew 16 is one of those straight forward reads you mentioned. I know you deny the Catholic Church was the Church of the Bible, but where does that teaching come from? It wasn’t an objection when Protestantism was formed.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
8-Untrue and I’ve called you on this a few times before. I really wish you’d stop saying this. You don’t seem to be one that likes spreading untruth.

That’s right the Holy Spirit gives us the interpretation, yet you say He doesn’t give different interpretations. Then how is Protestantism justified with so many denominations with different teachings, based on private interpretations and all claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit? How is someone to know which interpretation they are following is learned or unlearned, stable or unstable, wise or unwise? Peter said the unlearned, unstable and unwise wrest scriptures even to their own destruction. He warns that we should take heed lest we be led from our own steadfastness. Seems those differences can have major implications in one’s salvation, in my opinion.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
9-Well, if Bible and Scripture is synonomous, then if follows that if it’s not in the Bible it’s not Scriptural; whoever, as you and I have discussed, just because it’s not in the Bible does NOT mean it’s not true. There’s lots of truths not mentioned in the Bible.

Wait a minute, why are some Catholic beliefs challenged ‘because it’s not in scriptures’? Why are they not ‘lots of truths not mentioned in the Bible’? Can you not see the double standard here? Protestant beliefs not in the Bible are truths not mentioned, but Catholic beliefs are not biblical, period.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
10-Again, you and I have discussed this before; you aren’t being correct here,either.

Mary was immaculately conceived, perpetually a virgin and the mother of God. Peter was the leader over the Church Christ built. Christ is really present in the Eurcharist. All wrong, but we are to interpret scriptures for ourselves and the Bible is the only authority, all right. Catholics wrong, Protestants right.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
11-To let us in on His secret about His church, I guess. I doubt if you’ll, for a second, entertain that your understanding of what God means about all your questions on the churches place is incorrect?

The Church of the living god is the pillar and foundation of truth. I’m wrong? The manifold wisdom of God maybe made known through the Church. I’m wrong? Christ said take disputes to the Church. I’m wrong? God did not inspire it be written that scriptures was the pillar and ground of truth. I’m wrong? God did not inspire it be written that scriptures was the place that the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known. I’m wrong? Christ did not say take disputes to scriptures. I’m wrong yet again? What happened to most of the Bible is a straightforward read?​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
12-Agreed; we disagree what is meant by church.

God did establish an authority by appointing specific men over His Church. God did not appoint multitudes, or a body of believers as the authority of His Church. Again, I see it coming, I’m wrong again and you’re right.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
1-Silly question; the answer is still no.

It was rhetorical.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
2- yes

Is telling Catholics they are wrong being responsible to yourself?​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
3-a wise studier studies from many sources always focusing on the Bible. However, the Bible much of the Bible is quite straight forward.

Like men of the Church that have dedicated their entire lives to Christ, His Church, Traditions, sciptures and also come from the Church that preserved the scriptures through the ages for it to be in our hands today?

We feel the discussion between Christ and Peter in Matthew 16 is as straight forward as it gets.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
4-It it doens’t contradict the Bible and if it glorifies God, I don’t think it matters.

To call the mother of the Lord blessed as scriptures say, or that her soul magnifies God as scriptures say, or accept that she was full of grace as scriptures say doesn’t glorify God?

Seems we are condemned for any action we believe in and yet we do these thing to glorify God.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
5-What did Jesus mean when speaking to Peter in John 21?

Don’t worry about what I have in mind for Him, you tend my sheep as I told you to do.

What do you think of Jesus’ plan that John, the disciple that He loved, care for His mother in His earthly absence? Also, why would Jesus go against Jewish tradition that the next sibling in line care for the mother, had Mary had other children?​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
6-How do you discern me?

To be honest, I don’t know. Are you a teacher?​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
7-So do I; our understanding of what Jesus meant is different; you seem to believe what your church has said about itself.

Yet, Matthew 16 is one of those straight forward reads you mentioned. I know you deny the Catholic Church was the Church of the Bible, but where does that teaching come from? It wasn’t an objection when Protestantism was formed.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
8-Untrue and I’ve called you on this a few times before. I really wish you’d stop saying this. You don’t seem to be one that likes spreading untruth.

That’s right the Holy Spirit gives us the interpretation, yet you say He doesn’t give different interpretations. Then how is Protestantism justified with so many denominations with different teachings, based on private interpretations and all claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit? How is someone to know which interpretation they are following is learned or unlearned, stable or unstable, wise or unwise? Peter said the unlearned, unstable and unwise wrest scriptures even to their own destruction. He warns that we should take heed lest we be led from our own steadfastness. Seems those differences can have major implications in one’s salvation, in my opinion.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
9-Well, if Bible and Scripture is synonomous, then if follows that if it’s not in the Bible it’s not Scriptural; whoever, as you and I have discussed, just because it’s not in the Bible does NOT mean it’s not true. There’s lots of truths not mentioned in the Bible.

Wait a minute, why are some Catholic beliefs challenged ‘because it’s not in scriptures’? Why are they not ‘lots of truths not mentioned in the Bible’? Can you not see the double standard here? Protestant beliefs not in the Bible are truths not mentioned, but Catholic beliefs are not biblical, period.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
10-Again, you and I have discussed this before; you aren’t being correct here,either.

Mary was immaculately conceived, perpetually a virgin and the mother of God. Peter was the leader over the Church Christ built. Christ is really present in the Eurcharist. All wrong, but we are to interpret scriptures for ourselves and the Bible is the only authority, all right. Catholics wrong, Protestants right.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
11-To let us in on His secret about His church, I guess. I doubt if you’ll, for a second, entertain that your understanding of what God means about all your questions on the churches place is incorrect?

The Church of the living god is the pillar and foundation of truth. I’m wrong? The manifold wisdom of God maybe made known through the Church. I’m wrong? Christ said take disputes to the Church. I’m wrong? God did not inspire it be written that scriptures was the pillar and ground of truth. I’m wrong? God did not inspire it be written that scriptures was the place that the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known. I’m wrong? Christ did not say take disputes to scriptures. I’m wrong yet again? What happened to most of the Bible is a straightforward read?​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
12-Agreed; we disagree what is meant by church.

God did establish an authority by appointing specific men over His Church. God did not appoint multitudes, or a body of believers as the authority of His Church. Again, I see it coming, I’m wrong again and you’re right.

Dokimas need to read Luke 10=16

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If you are wrong, it’s being responsible to you.-But I can’t be responsible for the wrong I see in your interpretation? Then I should just mind my own business? Really, you can’t see the double standard here?

Oh the Holy Spirits job is done by the CC???No, the Church is the tool of the Holy Spirit. The Church gives ONE meaning through scriptures plus tradition. Protestantism offers many different truths, all claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit, yet Catholic wrong, Protestant right??

Are the ‘Beatitudes’ speak of Mary then???Do they say the Bible is the only authority?

I have no clue what you feel condemned by me about.You ‘exposed’ truth as given by an anti-Catholic website and you don’t think it was condemning Catholicism??

In other words, mind your own business.No, He told Peter three times to tend to His flock. It was do as I will and not as you ‘feel’ I should will.

Jesus was accused more than once for going against Jewish tradition, because He did go against tradition more than once. So what’s your point?You say Christ has siblings. According to Jewish traditions, the siblings are next to care for the mother at the death of the eldest. Christ told John to behold his mother, BECAUSE there were no other siblings from Mary. That’s the point.

I have taught for many yrs. Right now, no.Were you appointed a spiritual teacher?(I hope we’re not confusing school teacher with spiritual teacher here)

Using your logic, I’ll just ask my church.Close, your Church came through Churches that came from the Catholic Church.

Am I destroying myself?I don’t know, are you?
He warns that we should take heed lest we be led from our own steadfastness. Agreed. Quite scary. Then why is the steadfastness of the oldest Church in the world’s history to be ignored over a Church formed in the last 500 years or even less? Which steadfastness existed first? Which steadfastness came from the other? Seems those differences can have major implications in one’s salvation, in my opinion. Is my salvation based upon whether or not Mary was perpetually a virgin? Oh time to switch back to the Marian doctrines because we’ve moved to the private interpretation discussion, which has no Biblical defense, in my opinion.

Wait a minute, why are some Catholic beliefs challenged ‘because it’s not in scriptures’? Why are they not ‘lots of truths not mentioned in the Bible’? Can you not see the double standard here? We spoken on this issue before. And I think I answered it above but you did not add it to your comment so I don’t know for sure. Protestant beliefs not in the Bible are truths not mentioned, but Catholic beliefs are not biblical, period. That’s not what I’ve said so please don’t but words in my ‘mouth’.Didn’t you say the Marian doctrines were not in the Bible? Didn’t you refer to them as ‘false’ teachings needing exposing?

Mary was immaculately conceived, perpetually a virgin and the mother of God. Peter was the leader over the Church Christ built. Christ is really present in the Eurcharist. All wrong, but we are to interpret scriptures for ourselves and the Bible is the only authority, all right. Catholics wrong, Protestants right. This is getting quite tiring. According to you, my beliefs on the issue is wrong and yours are right. So what’s your point?-The obvious double standard that you cannot see. Every Catholic belief mentioned has been challenged by you, while the Bible is the only authority and interpreting scriptures individually is acceptable, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Yet you have not told us how to know which private interpretation to follow from the interpreter, when they all claim Holy Spirit guidance.

The Church of the living god is the pillar and foundation of truth. I’m wrong? The manifold wisdom of God maybe made known through the Church. I’m wrong? Christ said take disputes to the Church. I’m wrong? God did not inspire it be written that scriptures was the pillar and ground of truth. I’m wrong? God did not inspire it be written that scriptures was the place that the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known. I’m wrong? Christ did not say take disputes to scriptures. I’m wrong yet again? What happened to most of the Bible is a straightforward read? Round and round the merry-go-round and I’m not sure well be getting off soon enough to get anywhere. I don’t mean to be unkind but this is tiring.Yes it’s does get tiring to have your beliefs challenged and without a proper scriptural authority to support it. It’s a two way street, the ole double standard.

God did establish an authority by appointing specific men over His Church. Yep God did not appoint multitudes, or a body of believers as the authority of His Church. So you say; oh yes, it’s your church that told you.Actually READ above and see the scriptural refereces to the Church’s authority. Pillar and ground of truth, manifold wisdom of God, take your disputes too, and yes my Church believes that as well. See, the Bible clarifies somethings quite well, but it’s always ‘because your Church tells you’. The Church forces me to do nothing, I choose to follow His Church. He began His Church over 2000 years ago. Protestant Churches only formed in the last 500 years and some much more recent than that.

 

[KathleenGee]

My pastor shared with us that Christians saw Mary as sinless since the beginning of Christianity…If the Apostles could do great miracles, couldn’t Mary achieve more as Christ’s mother??

We live in a culture that to be a complete person, you have to have sex. But in the Christian perspective, if you are going to have sex, you better be decided to be faithful to each other because simply put, sex makes kids. The new forms of Christianity in this culture have no sense of roots or traditions or a scholastic understanding of early Christianity or its faith traditions—how they knew the great Christians then and how that understanding from the knowledge of being with them was passed down through the Catholic Church.

We live in a Christian culture that also has an attitude about anybody in Catholic Church authority…can’t deal with the word ‘dogma’…neither can our president…preconceived notions…you see Mary the spouse of Joseph, or you run across Mary the carnate spouse of the Holy Spirit…there are poetic expressions and there are doctrinal expressions…you have to understand the context as ours is a very old entity with many regions of the world with their own emphases.

If we have celibate priests and religious, or even couples who marry but remain celibate, then how much more possible Mary and Joseph also lived a celibate life.

Mary was no happy go lucky mother, blessed of all women…she heard at the Presentation of the Lord in the temple that her soul would be pierced by a sword because her son would be a sign of the rising of many and the downfall of others…that there implied her son would gravely suffer such consequence of mission…So she carried her entire life her son would come to an untimely end. Any mother who receives an omen about her infant either prays against it or awaits it. Mary was bittersweet…she always missed Him…but she had a different constitution than us. To others outside, the Holy Family was normal, but inside their home, it was most holy and not given to concupiscence.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Dokimas,

Let’s try to tackle only a couple ‘issues’ per post and it should remove some of the confusion.

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas,

Let’s try to tackle only a couple ‘issues’ per post and it should remove some of the confusion.

This is getting to crazy. We’re not getting anywhere sorry to say.

 

[mark_a]

unless you are making a comment about the lack of understanding many nonCatholics have about this.

Thanks,
Jon

You got it.

 

[mark_a]

Isn’t Mary the bride of the Holy Spirit? Seems some here spoke of Mary that way.

You wrote:

bride of part of the Godhead

but somehow I read: “bride part of the Godhead”, as if you were saying she were devine or part of the quadrinity, as we often hear.

My bad.

 

[Dokimas]

You wrote:

but somehow I read: “bride part of the Godhead”, as if you were saying she were devine or part of the quadrinity, as we often hear.

My bad.

I’d be a millionaire if I had a dime for ever time I misread something. I feel your pain.​

BTW, thank you for clearing that up. God bless you.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

YES!!! Because, if She had other children, what is so special about Jesus? If She had other children because of Joseph, why should we believe that Jesus was God when it could be He was simply a product of Joseph. If Joseph fathered other children with Mary, then it could be reasoned that he fathered Jesus as well, as some may have believed. If She had other children after Jesus, then, it could have been deducted that Our Lady & St. Joseph couldn’t control themselves during their betrothal and nothing was special about Jesus because he also fathered other childeren.

Furthermore, why would God chose to give His heart to a woman who would only use it and have chlidren with another man? Either she would be using God or be a polygamist.

It matters so much because, like sex, one is supposed to give one’s whole self to one’s spouse, fully and wholely and completely, one flesh and all that, wives obey your husbands, husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church; by not having sex with St. Joseph, Mary is completely God’s.

Protestants: What can I do so that you will understand She is your Mother? What can I do besides fasting and prayer that will make you research this case so that God may drop the scales from your eyes and you will not be proud in your ignorance?

Are you kidding me?

What makes Jesus special is that he is fully man and fully God, conceived of a virgin. The fact that Mary may have had other children certainly does not diminish that in the slightest.

It doesn’t maker her a polygamist, otherwise, God would not have allowed her to marry Joseph in the first place.

Your rationale makes no sense, honestly.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

What I don’t see is why so many non-Catholics get touchy on the topic of Mary. It always has to be a love/hate relationship with the Mother of God! God’s peace to you.

Personally I couldn’t care less. It’s just the sense in the assertions, as if Jesus is lowered if we dare allege he had brothers and that Mary wasn’t a perpetual virgin. It doesn’t matter in the slightest.

I am, however, quite disturbed at the Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Are you kidding me?

What makes Jesus special is that he is fully man and fully God, conceived of a virgin. The fact that Mary may have had other children certainly does not diminish that in the slightest.

It doesn’t maker her a polygamist, otherwise, God would not have allowed her to marry Joseph in the first place.

Your rationale makes no sense, honestly.

The Blessed Virgin gave birth to a Son.

“You are thinking not as God does…”

Personally I couldn’t care less. It’s just the sense in the assertions, as if Jesus is lowered if we dare allege he had brothers and that Mary wasn’t a perpetual virgin. It doesn’t matter in the slightest

I am, however, quite disturbed at the Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

Sorry, I wince whenever someone doubts her perpetual virginity. It’s almost like when a person spreads rumors about your close friend, and your friend, who is so forgiving and kind, asks you not to say anything. I must defend Mary. She is my Lord’s Mother and deserves more than we give her.

Anyway: you could care a lot more if you applied some common sense to the scriptures. Mary hinted she would be a virgin her whole life when Gabriel came to her. The Virgin would conceive and bear a child by the Holy Spirit.

 

[adstrinity]

Sorry, I wince whenever someone doubts her perpetual virginity. It’s almost like when a person spreads rumors about your close friend, and your friend, who is so forgiving and kind, asks you not to say anything. I must defend Mary. She is my Lord’s Mother and deserves more than we give her*.*

Yes, exactly. She is OUR Mother (yours, mine, Protestants), and for some to insult Her, is disrespecting the family. God the Son gave His Mother to US. That’s almost as good as His Grace. He loves us SOOOOO much, He shared His ONLY connection to this world with US. It is for the love of God (Son & Father …and HS) that we love this Woman and defend Her against Her more rebellious children, whom She still loves.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is closed.

Thanks to all who have participated.

God bless-

Rachel