The Protestant taint in American Catholicism that nobody is talking about

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mort_Alz
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Mort_Alz

Guest
What I am talking about is difficult to put to words. I can’t call it “capitalism” because that word means different things to different people and I can’t call it the “prosperity gospel” because I don’t think that the taint I’m referring to manifests itself in Catholics as a true belief that people don’t prosper because of sin.

Rather, I think it is simply a disconnect between Catholic social justice issues as they are practiced in America. From what I have observed, American Catholicism is just a little too friendly with the American attitude towards economics. What I mean is that there is an entrenched ignorance in the way American economic attitudes interact with social justice issues and that manifests in a very specific way with Catholicism.

As a starting point, let’s take the holy, Catholic view of human sexuality. (I don’t say “holy” sarcastically. The Catholic view is the holy view.) Human sexuality’s primary end is the procreation of children in marriage. Married sexuality’s secondary ends are the union of the spouses, and, lastly, a means to curb the corrupted sexual appetite in a mercifully holy way. (See 1 Corinthians 7:9).

Now, fast-forward to the current situation in America. There is a culture war going on between liberals and conservatives regarding what sexual behaviors we want to encourage or discourage. Catholics tend to fall in with the conservatives on these issues, largely because the conservatives tend to take a healthier, truer view of human sexuality. But it is precisely here where I’ve noticed a problem.

A side effect of joining our voices with American conservatives on sexual ethics is that we have unconsciously adopted some very non-Catholic (and even morally reprehensible) viewpoints on economics; at least in our attitudes that manifest during consideration of economic issues.

The only way I can clarify what I’m getting at is to illustrate by example. Take a young, unwed Catholic couple who are sincere in their faith. They love each other. They are in their biological prime for procreation which means their sexual appetites for one another are very strong. This also means, by American standards, that they are unusually young for marriage. No matter, they know that society’s standards can be mistaken and they know that God has designed marriage to facilitate their sexuality in a holy way. They get married. They quickly have kids. They quickly have a lot of kids because they are sincere Catholics. They start to have money issues. The husband is a hard worker, but he is unfortunate enough to be a part of the majority of Americans who can work 60 hours a week and still not make enough money to support a large family. They talk to their priest. Their priest gives them permission to practice nfp. They meet with success in practicing nfp, but they have nevertheless managed to have two more children while trying to use nfp to indefinitely postpone further pregnancies. They try to share the emotional hardships that come with this with their Catholic friends, but they shockingly receive unspoken judgment from them. They can tell they think things like, “If you make so little money, then why did you have so many kids?” “Why did they get married so young without being first financially stable?”

They dare not apply for government assistance because even their Catholic friends don’t think anything positive about anyone on welfare. They know they will be looked at as lazy freeloaders and irresponsible, lustful people with no self-control even though the father works 60 hours a week and they are only following their religious convictions on sexuality.

They want to send their kids to a Catholic school, but they cannot afford it. They apply for scholarships to be eligible, but it is a very shame-based process and they are made to feel like they are being an inconvenience to everyone who can afford to pay their own way.

They had dreams of adopting children in addition to their own because they wanted women to feel like they could give their unwanted children a decent home through adoption instead of feeling like they had to get an abortion, but they know they are not eligible. They first don’t have the money and they also don’t meet the necessary criteria to even be eligible. They don’t have the house space.

So, they live out the remainder of their lives even being scorned by their Catholic friends who view them as lazy, irresponsible, and burdens to the more fortunate.

This is all very backwards and counterproductive thinking to the promotion of good Catholic sexual ethics in American society. And I am scandalized every time I see a total lack of effort to transform our economic culture to that which accompanies a right view of sexuality. An economic attitude that welcomes children as much as the individual couple are called to and one which won’t penalize young Catholic couples for trying to remain chaste and diligent in their faith.

I posted this to Traditional Catholicism only because no other forum seemed to fit and the Traditional Catholicism forum seems to deal a lot with Catholic culture in he context of American culture. I did not post this here because I think it’s an issue inherent with Catholics who prefer older Catholic praxis and the Latin Mass.
 
As a Traditional (Eastern) Catholic, I don’t look at any person eligible for assistance that applies properly and gets it, as a freeloader.
 
**They quickly have a lot of kids because they are sincere Catholics. ** They start to have money issues. The husband is a hard worker, but he is unfortunate enough to be a part of the majority of Americans who can work 60 hours a week and still not make enough money to support a large family. They talk to their priest. Their priest gives them permission to practice nfp. They meet with success in practicing nfp, but they have nevertheless managed to have two more children while trying to use nfp to indefinitely postpone further pregnancies. They try to share the emotional hardships that come with this with their Catholic friends, but they shockingly receive unspoken judgment from them. They can tell they think things like, “If you make so little money, then why did you have so many kids?” “Why did they get married so young without being first financially stable?”
This paragraph contains the seed that undermines the family in this scenario. Having a lot of children is a vocation to be discerned not the duty of ‘sincere Catholics’. There is a fallacy perpetrated that nfp can be done with a ‘contraceptive mentality’ unless you are gravely ill or starving. The Church in 1951 gave some clear factors that come into the discernment for using periodic abstinence to avoid pregnancy.

"Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called “indications,” may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life.” - Address to Midwives. Pope Pius XII

People can certainly be selfish in their weighing material and social factors in limiting the size of the family, but that could also be the case in not weighing material and social factors into their decision to have children.
 
A word to the wise, I would delete this thread and start another one with a more appropriate title. There are a lot of Protestant members on CAF who will most likely not take kindly to the “protestant taint” in your title. As it is, the title makes it appear as if the purpose of the thread is to stir up strife. Imagine if you were on a Protestant forum and you saw a thread entitled “Catholic taint in American Protestantism that is not being talked about”. I doubt you would like it.
 
A word to the wise, I would delete this thread and start another one with a more appropriate title. There are a lot of Protestant members on CAF who will most likely not take kindly to the “protestant taint” in your title. As it is, the title makes it appear as if the purpose of the thread is to stir up strife. Imagine if you were on a Protestant forum and you saw a thread entitled “Catholic taint in American Protestantism that is not being talked about”. I doubt you would like it.
I wholeheartedly agree.
 
I have to say this is also a problem for some Protestants as well. I knew a Protestant family who did exactly what you described and really struggled until a health issue with one of their children forced them to “freeload” by getting Medicaid.

I think that part of the problem is that the way welfare used to be structured (I think it has changed some), only women without husbands were eligible. A woman could he supported by a husband or by the government; too many chose the latter, and this is still going one, with young women having babies while still in high school.

It’s a mess, that’s for sure.
 
A word to the wise, I would delete this thread and start another one with a more appropriate title. There are a lot of Protestant members on CAF who will most likely not take kindly to the “protestant taint” in your title. As it is, the title makes it appear as if the purpose of the thread is to stir up strife. Imagine if you were on a Protestant forum and you saw a thread entitled “Catholic taint in American Protestantism that is not being talked about”. I doubt you would like it.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Thank you.
 
Having a lot of children is a vocation to be discerned not the duty of ‘sincere Catholics’. There is a fallacy perpetrated that nfp can be done with a ‘contraceptive mentality’ unless you are gravely ill or starving.
I agree. Thank you for pointing that out. I should have been more specific. By their having many children, it is due to them being sincere Catholics because they are practicing nfp instead of using ABC. The fact can’t be ignored that some couples are just bad at nfp or have complications that make predicting ovulation accurately very very difficult. This is where some couples experience judgment from other Catholics who have it a bit easier. It is thought that they just don’t have enough self control or that they are just being irresponsible.
 
This paragraph contains the seed that undermines the family in this scenario. **Having a lot of children is a vocation to be discerned not the duty of ‘sincere Catholics’. **There is a fallacy perpetrated that nfp can be done with a ‘contraceptive mentality’ unless you are gravely ill or starving. The Church in 1951 gave some clear factors that come into the discernment for using periodic abstinence to avoid pregnancy.
I do not agree with this at all. For 1800 years, people did not even know that there were feetile and infertile times, much less the details of NFP. People accepted the children God sent them. Now we all of a sudden have to “discern” if we are “called” to have x-number of children? Were all those who lived through the 18 preceeding centuries sinning?

ISTM that we just live in a time which does not value and prioritize family and family life, and as a result, we are pressured to have fewer children by society, economics, etc.
"Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called “indications,” may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life.” - Address to Midwives. Pope Pius XII
People can certainly be selfish in their weighing material and social factors in limiting the size of the family, but that could also be the case in not weighing material and social factors into their decision to have children.
 
A word to the wise, I would delete this thread and start another one with a more appropriate title. There are a lot of Protestant members on CAF who will most likely not take kindly to the “protestant taint” in your title. As it is, the title makes it appear as if the purpose of the thread is to stir up strife. Imagine if you were on a Protestant forum and you saw a thread entitled “Catholic taint in American Protestantism that is not being talked about”. I doubt you would like it.
I appreciate the suggestion and the sensitivity. Speaking as a former Protestant, I’m inclined to disagree. Protestants should not be offended at the title, nor would I be offended in your example. (You did say it would take place in a Protestant forum, correct? It’s no secret there are fundamental disagreements between the two. Allowing yourself to become offended by something that has historically been a disagreement is a little petty.)

That being said, I said Protestant specifically because I think there is an historical connection to the issue I posted coming from the “Protestant work ethic.” Realizing, of course, that not al Protestants fit this mold.
 
I was initially rather irritated, to be honest, but given your kind responses pointing out that problem, it might be more interesting to leave it up… 😃

After reading your post, Mort, I actually agree with some of your comments, but I think you’re directing it at the wrong influence. If Catholics were rejecting Hail Maries because of a Sola Scriptura reading of Scripture or disagreeing with the Catholic conception of mortal sins because of a Sola Fide conception of salvation, that would be due to Protestant influence. In this case, however, you are criticizing the economic policy so many Catholics are basically forced into holding. This has nothing to do with Protestantism, really – it has everything to do with Politics, specifically, Conservative politics.

Typically, I would say that most Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, feel compelled to vote Republican, mostly because the current liberal attitude held by Democrats is shockingly out of line with the Christian conception of basic morality. Now, due to the nature of American politics, by accepting one party, we tend to reject all the policies of the other party – including some of the social justice issues promoted by Democrats. I actually do not really hold to either a fully Democratic or fully Republican view of economics – I believe that if we took both policies to their logical extreme, we would have unjust, uncontrolled chaos on the one hand or a totalitarian, weak economy on the other. I see the balance of Republicans and Democrats fighting each other on these issues as balancing each other out, helping us stay in a more stable middle zone and come to the best conclusion.

Unfortunately, this means that when honest improvement needs to be made to help families, and the Republicans are opposed, most Christians go along anyway because that is what their party believes, regardless of whether or not it would be right. How we can get away from this, though, I don’t know. 🤷 I wish I could wholeheartedly put my backing behind whichever party happened to have the best economic ideas for the time, but I just can’t accept the Democratic moral policy. If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to speak them.
 
I do not agree with this at all. For 1800 years, people did not even know that there were feetile and infertile times, much less the details of NFP. People accepted the children God sent them. Now we all of a sudden have to “discern” if we are “called” to have x-number of children? Were all those who lived through the 18 preceeding centuries sinning?

ISTM that we just live in a time which does not value and prioritize family and family life, and as a result, we are pressured to have fewer children by society, economics, etc.
Am I misreading your comment? How could they possibly have been sinning not to use something that required new technological knowledge to attain? It is like suggesting someone is accusing them of sinning for not using cell phones. Obviously not. The person is simply suggesting that using cellphones is not itself immoral; in this case, the suggestion is that choosing not to have children by using NFP is not in itself immoral.
 
I was initially rather irritated, to be honest, but given your kind responses pointing out that problem, it might be more interesting to leave it up… 😃

After reading your post, Mort, I actually agree with some of your comments, but I think you’re directing it at the wrong influence. If Catholics were rejecting Hail Maries because of a Sola Scriptura reading of Scripture or disagreeing with the Catholic conception of mortal sins because of a Sola Fide conception of salvation, that would be due to Protestant influence. In this case, however, you are criticizing the economic policy so many Catholics are basically forced into holding. This has nothing to do with Protestantism, really – it has everything to do with Politics, specifically, Conservative politics.

Typically, I would say that most Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, feel compelled to vote Republican, mostly because the current liberal attitude held by Democrats is shockingly out of line with the Christian conception of basic morality. Now, due to the nature of American politics, by accepting one party, we tend to reject all the policies of the other party – including some of the social justice issues promoted by Democrats. I actually do not really hold to either a fully Democratic or fully Republican view of economics – I believe that if we took both policies to their logical extreme, we would have unjust, uncontrolled chaos on the one hand or a totalitarian, weak economy on the other. I see the balance of Republicans and Democrats fighting each other on these issues as balancing each other out, helping us stay in a more stable middle zone and come to the best conclusion.

Unfortunately, this means that when honest improvement needs to be made to help families, and the Republicans are opposed, most Christians go along anyway because that is what their party believes, regardless of whether or not it would be right. How we can get away from this, though, I don’t know. 🤷 I wish I could wholeheartedly put my backing behind whichever party happened to have the best economic ideas for the time, but I just can’t accept the Democratic moral policy. If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to speak them.
Well, I had to set up the title with a little click-bait to get people to read the post. 🙂

But, I agree with you. Neither party, taken totally is a truly Christian party. It’s hard to find someone in power or to find someone who could feasibly get in power who has sound, traditional sexual ethics, but a charitable view of economics and caring for the poor.
 
The anti-child mentality that you are criticizing is not inherently Protestant, nor is it really an economic attitude. It is simply the anti-child, anti-life Culture of Death that many Westerners have bought into.
 
I guess the click bait worked.

Your premise mixes 2 ideas; one present from the beginning of civilized religion and one modern origin.

The ancient is that each religion exists within a society and takes on characteristics of that societies culture. It is just a general condition without regard to which society or which religion.

Second, and this relates to the first, is modern American Christianity has come to mix the mission of the church with the political capabilities of our society. I think Ronald Reagan first saw the benefit of going after the Christian right for political gain, and the Democrats have since adopted morality on the left to further their political agenda as well.

Each person can decide whether this is a good thing or not, but it is unmistakable that religion or lack thereof is being used as a tool to further political agendas on both sides.

PAX
 
I do not agree with this at all. For 1800 years, people did not even know that there were feetile and infertile times, much less the details of NFP. People accepted the children God sent them. Now we all of a sudden have to “discern” if we are “called” to have x-number of children? Were all those who lived through the 18 preceeding centuries sinning?

ISTM that we just live in a time which does not value and prioritize family and family life, and as a result, we are pressured to have fewer children by society, economics, etc.
Once you start thinking like that, how far back in Christian history should we go to find the perfect model of family? In the first century women never worked and were all stay at home family raisers. Some might suggest the Holy Family didn’t set a good example of Christian family only having one child.

In first century Rome 25% of children died in the first year and 50% before age 10. That sort of statistic would naturally influence the social mentality towards family size. After major wars there is a social trend towards larger families.

Women in the workforce is considered a positive thing for civilisation and the growth of equality between the sexes and the rights and protections for children. If every woman were to leave the workforce and return to the home to large families and less modern conveniences, do you really think equality, access to medical care and children having childhoods before being forced into the workforce could remain?

The Church is convinced enough that nature and social society are in tune enough with human survival and wellbeing, that the decision about family sizes should be left strictly to the couples involved without undue influence from ideological bullying.
 
ISTM that we just live in a time which does not value and prioritize family and family life, and as a result, we are pressured to have fewer children by society, economics, etc.
I live in an area with many Mennonites, and quite often they have relatively large families. But, the children work, as children have worked in most societies until modern times in developed countries—not a bad thing. The young kids aren’t just an economic drain, they’re adding to the family’s welfare themselves. Even on small farms the family has a large garden which feeds the family, they have poultry for eggs and meat, milk cows, beef cattle and pigs. I always see kids helping in family non-farm Mennonite businesses, too. They make it work without needing government assistance.🤷
 
I live in an area with many Mennonites, and quite often they have relatively large families. But, the children work, as children have worked in most societies until modern times in developed countries—not a bad thing. The young kids aren’t just an economic drain, they’re adding to the family’s welfare themselves. Even on small farms the family has a large garden which feeds the family, they have poultry for eggs and meat, milk cows, beef cattle and pigs. I always see kids helping in family non-farm Mennonite businesses, too. They make it work without needing government assistance.🤷
Not everyone can live on a farm and contribute to a family business with their work. In urban centers the idea of sending littlies into the workplace is a dangerous one. It opens them up to abuse in even greater ways than now. I don’t see how that system could work. It would end up being a similar travesty to childhood like the Industrial era produced.
 
Not everyone can live on a farm and contribute to a family business with their work. In urban centers the idea of sending littlies into the workplace is a dangerous one. It opens them up to abuse in even greater ways than now. I don’t see how that system could work. It would end up being a similar travesty to childhood like the Industrial era produced.
I agree. Not everyone can live on a farm or homestead. I’m pointing out, though, that what the OP is complaining about as a “Protestant taint” isn’t from a Protestant source, but rather due to the numerous changes in modern lifestyles which make supporting large families harder than it has been for much of history.
 
I do not agree with this at all. For 1800 years, people did not even know that there were feetile and infertile times, much less the details of NFP. People accepted the children God sent them. Now we all of a sudden have to “discern” if we are “called” to have x-number of children? Were all those who lived through the 18 preceeding centuries sinning?

ISTM that we just live in a time which does not value and prioritize family and family life, and as a result, we are pressured to have fewer children by society, economics, etc.
They often lost half or more of their children to disease, so in the end populations grew slowly, those with medical issues rarely survived. Lots of chhildren was a survival trait well before it became a holy decree.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top