The Quadrality

[PumpkinCookie]

I disagree…

Me: How do you know Peter is the proxy?
You: Bible says so.
Me: How do you know that’s what is meant?
You: Church says so.
Me: How do you know they’re correct?
You: Church says so.

No, that’s not true…

I am trying to show that the epistemological grounds of fundamentalism and authoritarianism are essentially similar: an individual’s subjective understanding of the supposedly “objective” 3rd party (book or pope).

A Catholic’s absolute faith is not in God or Jesus, but in their understanding of authority of the Catholic Church.

A fundamentalist’s absolute faith is not in God or Jesus, but in their understanding of the authority of the Bible.

Now, one more general comment. You often seem to take my statements in a prescriptive sense. Like in the statements directly above this, you may understand me to be asserting that faith should be in God or Jesus and should not be in the authority of the Catholic Church or the Bible.

I do not mean to convey this. I rarely mean to write prescriptively, but rather descriptively. I don’t care what you think or how you believe, you’re free, praise God! I am not trying to get you to change your epistemology. I am not trying to de-evangelize you or whatever. What I am trying to do is explore what I see as a problem in the Catholic mode of belief. If you don’t think it is a problem, well that’s just fine. Thanks for exploring with me.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

A humorous (to me) story:

I consider myself an open-minded person. I listen to every sales pitch. I take and actually read every pamphlet. I talk to every panhandler and street preacher. I humor every “psychic” and scammer on the street. I enjoy this kind of thing.

Anyway, one time some Jehovah’s Witnesses came to my door offering their sales pitch. So of course I invited them in. They wanted to know if I had a bible, so I brought out my stack of bibles and we started to chat. Of course they then tried to tell me their translation was the only accurate one and all of the others I had were deficient in some way. (In these situations, I mostly just listen and say “mmm, hmm” with a blank expression so I don’t give any info away.)

At some point in the conversation one of them pulled out a book called “What The Bible REALLY Says” and I lost it. I just couldn’t contain myself because something about it seemed so ridiculous. As though the thousands of years of bloody conflict had been resolved in some cheap pamphlet written by “The Watchtower” in Brooklyn. LOL! The ridiculous arrogance of such a title was visceral, and I couldn’t stop laughing. They probably thought I was insane. I probably am insane. :whacky: I can be a very tough customer sometimes, God forgive me.

But then it got me thinking. Why was it so ridiculous? Was it merely because The Watchtower is such a silly name? Is it any more silly than anything else? Is it because it is contemporary? What exactly did I find to be so absurd?

I am still working this out. I happen to believe Moses and the entire nation of Israel received a revelation from God. Why do I not find that funny in the same way I find claims to know “the REAL story” funny? Is it the revisionism? Is it the feel of a conspiracy theory? I’m still not sure.

Anyway, I invited them back for more bible study but for some reason I haven’t heard from them again…been several years now…hmm…

 

[inocente]

A humorous (to me) story:

I consider myself an open-minded person. I listen to every sales pitch. I take and actually read every pamphlet. I talk to every panhandler and street preacher. I humor every “psychic” and scammer on the street. I enjoy this kind of thing.

Anyway, one time some Jehovah’s Witnesses came to my door offering their sales pitch. So of course I invited them in. They wanted to know if I had a bible, so I brought out my stack of bibles and we started to chat. Of course they then tried to tell me their translation was the only accurate one and all of the others I had were deficient in some way. (In these situations, I mostly just listen and say “mmm, hmm” with a blank expression so I don’t give any info away.)

At some point in the conversation one of them pulled out a book called “What The Bible REALLY Says” and I lost it. I just couldn’t contain myself because something about it seemed so ridiculous. As though the thousands of years of bloody conflict had been resolved in some cheap pamphlet written by “The Watchtower” in Brooklyn. LOL! The ridiculous arrogance of such a title was visceral, and I couldn’t stop laughing. They probably thought I was insane. I probably am insane. :whacky: I can be a very tough customer sometimes, God forgive me.

But then it got me thinking. Why was it so ridiculous? Was it merely because The Watchtower is such a silly name? Is it any more silly than anything else? Is it because it is contemporary? What exactly did I find to be so absurd?

I am still working this out. I happen to believe Moses and the entire nation of Israel received a revelation from God. Why do I not find that funny in the same way I find claims to know “the REAL story” funny? Is it the revisionism? Is it the feel of a conspiracy theory? I’m still not sure.

Anyway, I invited them back for more bible study but for some reason I haven’t heard from them again…been several years now…hmm…

Every month a couple of girls turn up to hand me the latest Watchtower, even though they have to drive for miles between the mountains to reach us. They both have jobs and don’t get paid to knock on doors, so I can understand they wouldn’t return if they weren’t welcome. They do it because they believe the Kingdom is coming and we should all be prepared. We have little debates, they know they’re not going to convert me.

They turned up today, and having seen your post I asked them why it’s called Watchtower. They weren’t totally certain but it may come from 1 Kings 18, where a servant is sent up to be the lookout, and sees a small cloud far off, a cloud which approaches and produces a downpour. That image is also used in many songs (I think this one is by Paul Oakely):

*We have prayed that You would have mercy;
We believe from heaven You’ve heard.
Heal our land, so dry and so thirsty;
We have strayed so far from You, Lord.

Your cloud appeared on the horizon,
Small as a man’s hand.
But now You’re near,
Filling our vision,
Pour out Your Spirit again.
I felt the touch of Your wind on my face:
I feel the first drops of rain.

Let it rain, let it rain.
I will not be the same.
Let it rain, rain on me.
Let it pour down on me,
Let it rain.*