The Qur'an challenge and the Book of Mormon challenge

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Hatikvah

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I know you’re probably thinking: "What does the Book of Mormon have to do with the Qur’an?" I’m sure you can draw parallels of some sort, starting with the point that they are both religious texts, but that’s not my reason for making this thread.

I wanted to draw to your attention to two literary challenges that may be interesting for you to read about, or to actually try (especially if you have a lot of time on your hands and you’re willing to get creative). First I will discuss the challenge of the Qur’an.

The Qur’an itself contains an implicit challenge (or perhaps a fact???):
“Were all mankind to come together and wish to produce the like of the Qur’an, they would never succeed, however much they aided each other." (17:88)
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However, the scope of the challenge is made more explicit:
“Do people imagine that this Qur’an is not from Us, and that you, O Prophet are falsely attributing to us? Tell them that if they are speaking truly they should produce ten surahs resembling the Qur’an, and that they are free to call on the aid of anyone but God in so doing.” (11:13)
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A sura is a chapter of the Qur’an to be clear. The idea goes that we cannot even produce a single one:
“Oh people, if you doubt the heavenly origin of this Book which We have sent down to Our servant, the Prophet, produce one surah like it.” (2:23)
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The Islamic website that I got the Qur’an verses from is here, and I suggest using it for these purposes if you are willing to try: al-islam.org/authenticity-quran-shaykh-muslim-bhanji/challenge-quran

While the Book of Mormon does not contain such an explicit challenge in its pages, a Mormon website does issue a sort of challenge. #1-11 are legitimate, while the rest of the numbers are claims about the Book of Mormon probably meant to stump you. To get the gist of this, it says:
Write a history of ancient Tibet covering a period from 600 B.C. to 450 A.D. Why ancient Tibet? Because you know no more about Tibet than Joseph Smith (or anyone else) knew about ancient America.
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There are several other premises that are seriously challenged, paralleling the Book of Mormon, like “your history must be 531 pages and over 300,000 words in length” (#5) and “your history must be written on the basis of what you now know” [no research is allowed] (#6).

That challenge on the Mormon website can be found here: lds-mormon.com/challenge.shtml

I wonder what the results would be if someone here tried it? :rolleyes:
 
There’s also another difference between the Book of Mormon and the Qur’an…

Joseph Smith found the Golden Tablets and was supposed to have translated them you’ll recall and they were later taken to heaven and you have some testimonies from a handful of associates of Joseph Smith that the Golden Tablets were “real”.

In the case of the Qur’an you have a series of revelations collected in the various Surihs over some twenty three years that are in the context of history and many Biblical subjects and some extra Biblical subjects.

See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbab_al-nuzul
 
The angels, both good and bad, have all knowledge. As we know, one of the signs of possession is knowing things one ought not know (like uneducated people knowing Ancient Greek).

So I would not doubt supernatural aid in writing these books, but I would be suspicious of the origin: angels or demons?
 
Hatikvah said:
While the Book of Mormon does not contain such an explicit challenge in its pages, a Mormon website does issue a sort of challenge. #1-11 are legitimate, while the rest of the numbers are claims about the Book of Mormon probably meant to stump you. To get the gist of this, it says:

There are several other premises that are seriously challenged, paralleling the Book of Mormon, like “your history must be 531 pages and over 300,000 words in length” (#5) and “your history must be written on the basis of what you now know” [no research is allowed] (#6).

That challenge on the Mormon website can be found here: lds-mormon.com/challenge.shtml

I wonder what the results would be if someone here tried it? :rolleyes:
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I’m not very familiar with the book of Mormon. Does it contain some sort of account of the ancient Americas?

If so, is it historically correct and corroborated by other sources?

If not, couldn’t I just make up my own history of ancient Tibet out of my overactive imagination, claim it’s correct, and be done with it?

BTW: I think George RR Martin did a fine job having a whack at the Book of Mormon challenge with A Song of Ice and Fire!
 
Stephen_says said:
I’m not very familiar with the book of Mormon. Does it contain some sort of account of the ancient Americas?

If so, is it historically correct and corroborated by other sources?

If not, couldn’t I just make up my own history of ancient Tibet out of my overactive imagination, claim it’s correct, and be done with it?

BTW: I think George RR Martin did a fine job having a whack at the Book of Mormon challenge with A Song of Ice and Fire!
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The LDS claim it does contain an account of ancient America and no, none of it has ever been corroborated by any scientific means. The is zero evidence any of the events in the Book of Mormon happened.
 
The Koran challenge of producing a Surah like it has always been a ridiculous notion to me. We can produce a bunch of Surahs like it, but who will be the judge on this? The Mullahs? :rolleyes: Maybe we can make Richard Dawkins the judge since he has no horse in the race? But if he rules in our favor Muslims will just say he is a religion hater and that caused his bias.

The claim that the Koran is preserved and free from error means absolutely nothing to non believers. Nobody has corrupted the Cat in the Hat by Dr. Seuss, either, but that doesn’t mean it’s inspired by God
 
Here’s one of my favorites:

Qur’an 33:53: “Enter not the Prophet’s houses, except when leave is given to you for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation. But when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken your meal, disperse, without sitting for a talk. Verily, such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet, and he is shy of (asking) you (to go), but Allah is not shy of (telling you) the truth. And when you ask (his wives) for anything you want, ask them from behind a screen, that is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not (right) for you that you should annoy Allah’s Messenger, nor that you should ever marry his wives after him (his death).”

Profound.
 
An essay competition is a very bad way of measuring the truth of a particular statement or book. To even suggest this “method” reveals how flawed the Qu’ran and the Book of Mormon are.
 
The Quran’s challenge is completely subjective. Any great orator can compose something eloquent and beautiful, and then claim no one can surpass him.
 
Sura Al-Kauthar 108 says:
Indeed We have given you abundance.
So pray to your Lord, and sacrifice [the sacrificial camel]. (1Or ‘raise your hands.’ According to this interpretation, the phrase refers to the raising of the hands to the ears during prayers.)
Indeed it is your enemy who is without posterity.

Here’s Mor Ephrem the Syrian on Paradise:
  1. The air of Paradise
    is a fountain of delight
    from which Adam sucked
    when he was young;
    its very breath, like a mother’s breast,
    gave him nourishment in his childhood.
    He was young, fair,
    and full of joy,
    but when he spurned the injunction
    he grew old, sad and decrepit;
    he bore old age
    as a burden of woes.
RESPONSE: Blessed is He who exalted Adam and caused him to return to Paradise.
  1. No harmful frost,
    no scorching heat
    is to be found
    in that blessed place of delight;
    it is a harbor of joys,
    a haven of pleasures;
    light and rejoicing
    have their home there;
    gathered there are to be found
    harps and lyres,
    with shouts of Hosanna,
    and the Church crying “Alleluia.”
  2. The fence which surrounds it
    is the peace which gives peace to all;
    its inner and outer walls
    are the concord which reconciles all things;
    the cherub who encircles it
    is radiant to those who are within
    but full of menace to those outside
    who have been cast out.
    All that you hear told
    about this Paradise,
    so pure and holy,
    is pure and spiritual.
  3. Let not this description of it
    be judged by one who hears it,
    for descriptions of it
    are not at all subject to judgment,
    since, even though it may appear terrestrial
    because of the terms used,
    it is in its reality
    spiritual and pure.
    Even though the name of “spirit”
    is applied to two kinds of beings,
    yet the unclean spirit is quite separate
    from the one that is sanctified.
  4. For him who would tell of it
    there is no other means
    but to use the names
    of things that are visible,
    thus depicting for his hearers
    a likeness of things that are hidden.
    For if the Creator
    of the Garden
    has clothed His majesty
    in terms that we can understand,
    how much more can His Garden
    be described with our similes?
  5. If someone concentrates his attention solely
    on the metaphors used of God’s majesty,
    he abuses and misrepresents that majesty
    and thus errs
    by means of those metaphors
    with which God clothed Himself for his benefit,
    and he is ungrateful to that Grace
    which stooped low
    to the level of his childishness;
    although it has nothing in common with him,
    yet Grace clothed itself in his likeness
    in order to bring him to the likeness of itself.
  6. Do not let your intellect
    be disturbed by mere names,
    for Paradise has simply clothed itself
    in terms that are akin to you;
    it is not because it is impoverished
    that it has put on your imagery;
    rather, your nature is far too weak
    to be able
    to attain to its greatness,
    and its beauties are much diminished
    by being depicted in the pale colors
    with which you are familiar.
  7. For feeble eyes
    cannot gaze upon
    the dazzling sight
    of its celestial beauties;
    it has clothed its trees
    with the names of the trees we know;
    its figs are called
    by the same name as our figs,
    its leaves, which are spiritual,
    have taken on bodily form;
    they have been changed
    so that their vesture may resemble ours.
  8. More numerous and glorious
    than the stars
    in the sky that we behold
    are the blossoms of that land,
    and the fragrance which exhales from it
    through divine Grace
    is like a physician
    sent to heal the ills
    of a land that is under a curse;
    by its healing breath it cures
    the sickness that entered in
    through the serpent.
  9. The breath that wafts
    from some blessed comer of Paradise
    gives sweetness
    to the bitterness of this region,
    it tempers the curse
    on this earth of ours.
    That Garden is
    the life-breath
    of this diseased world
    that has been so long in sickness;
    that breath proclaims that a saving remedy
    has been sent to heal our mortality.
  10. What need was there
    that from that land
    a river should flow forth
    and divide itself,
    except that the blessing of Paradise
    should be mingled by means of water
    as it issues forth
    to irrigate the world,
    making clean its fountains
    that had become polluted by curses
    -just as that “sickly water”
    had been made wholesome by the salt.
  11. Thus it is with another spring,
    full of perfumes,
    which issues from Eden
    and penetrates into the atmosphere
    as a beneficial breeze
    by which our souls are stirred;
    our inhalation is healed
    by this healing breath
    from Paradise;
    springs receive a blessing
    from that blessed spring
    which issues forth from there.
  12. A vast censer
    exhaling fragrance
    impregnates the air
    with its odoriferous smoke,
    imparting to all who are near it
    a whiff from which to benefit.
    How much the more so
    with Paradise the glorious:
    even its fence assists us,
    modifying somewhat
    that curse upon the earth
    by the scent of its aromas.
  13. When the blessed Apostles
    were gathered together
    the place shook
    and the scent of Paradise,
    having recognized its home,
    poured forth its perfumes,
    delighting the heralds
    by whom
    the guests are instructed
    and come to His banquet;
    eagerly He awaits their arrival
    for He is the Lover of mankind.
  14. Make me worthy through Your grace
    to attain to Paradise’s gift
    -this treasure of perfumes,
    this storehouse of scents.
    My hunger takes delight
    in the breath of its fragrance,
    for its scent gives nourishment to all
    at all times,
    and whoever inhales it
    is overjoyed and forgets his earthly bread;
    this is the table of the Kingdom-
    blessed is He who prepared it in Eden.
 
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