The Rapture

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Zenas,

Here’s another interesting thought. Even if we grant that Rapture refers to the end times, we need only read the words introducing this scenario to see the flaw in a Rapture interpretation. “As were the days of Noah…the flood came and swept them all away” (Mt 24:37,39). In the days of Noah, the wicked were taken by flood waters and the righteous (Noah and his family) were left behind in safety. If the Rapture teachers are correct in thinking that this passage applies to the close of the age, then it would seem to prove the opposite of what they teach about who gets taken (i.e. the wicked were taken) and who gets left behind (i.e. the righteous – Noah and his family, were left behind).
same thing with the scripture in the gospels they use to prove the ‘left behind’ thing—forget where it is right now, but it does not say what they claim it does—it says two will be in the field and one will be taken and one will be left behind, but it does not say which is the preferable situation to be in!
🤷
 
A great book I’ve read explaining Revelation and debunking the rapture is “Rapture” The end times error that leaves the Bible behind, by David B. Currie
 
When each of us dies, our souls are immediately taken to the presence of God and judged. This is called the Particular Judgment. At this point we begin our eternal destiny. If we are going to hell, our souls go directly there. If we are deemed worthy of heaven, our souls will go directly to heaven, or if we are going to heaven but are in need of purification, we may go to Purgatory first for a while (everyone in Purgatory will eventually go to heaven). Whatever our fate, our souls will stay there (heaven or hell) until the end of time, at which time the Second Coming will occur.

At the Second Coming at the end of time, those Christians still alive will be taken to heaven (what some Protestants think of as of the rapture). Then will occur the General Judgment. At that time the souls of the living and the dead will be reunited with their bodies and brought together in God’s presence and judged before all. Those who have already been judged in the Particular Judgment will be brought from wherever their souls were -heaven, hell or Purgatory-- and have their judgment confirmed before all, so that both the justice and mercy of God will be manifest to all.

After this, time and Purgatory will be no more and all will enter with their souls and bodies into their eternal destiny, either hell or heaven.

This is an extremely bare-bones sketch, so if you want to get the details, see the five articles I linked below:

rosary-center.org/ll57n1.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n2.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n3.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n4.htm
rosary-center.org/ll49n6.htm

In addition, you have to learn to recognize erroneous teachings about the End Times popularized by fundamentalists. In other words, toss out the “Left Behind” and “Late, Great Planet Earth” baloney. Here are some resources to help you develop some discernment in these areas:

catholic.com/library/rapture.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0011fea2.asp
catholic.com/library/false_profit.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0211fea3.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0001fea1.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9510ntg.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0209fea5.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0304bt.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9409fea4.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9410fea2.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009bite.asp
carl-olson.com/rapture_articles.html

Here’s a website with several articles from a Catholic perspective regarding this subject. The writer is Carl Olsen, the author of the best selling book “Will Catholics Be Left Behind?”

carl-olson.com/rapture_articles.html

I’d also recommend going to the Catholic Answers home page and putting “Rapture” or “Left Behind” into the “Search” feature. You’ll find several good articles there from reliable writers. Here is one of their Special Reports on this:
catholic.com/library/false_profit.asp

If you’re looking for other good books on the subject by Catholics, look for the following:

The Rapture Trap, by Paul Thigpen
catholiccompany.com/produ…ail.cfm?ID=948

Rapture, by David Currie
catholiccompany.com/produ…il.cfm?ID=3447

If you prefer tapes or CDs, I’d recommend:

The Rapture Files, by Tim Staples
The Rapture Revealed, by David Currie
(both available from St. Joseph’s Communications)
saintjoe.com/

Will You Be Left Behind?, by Carl Olsen
(Same link as above)

Catholics & The Rapture, by Patrick Madid
surprisedbytruth.com/store/shopexd.asp?id=52

Introduction to Prophecy, by Steve Wood
Delusions of Rapture & Prophecy, by Steve Wood and Paul Thigpen
familylifecenter.net/cart… ser=51422080
Thanks for all the great resources. I will definitely check them out. This is a topic that leaves me a little confused too, so I appreciate the information!
 
You know I would want to be left behind it’s seems from Scared Scripture the righteous where left behind and the wicked were taken away.:hmmm:
 
Well, here’s my take on it…
I find this to be one of the more puzzling doctrines out there, in that an honest look at Scripture can rather easily debunk it. If you firmly believe that the Bible shows a pre-tribulational rapture, then that is just one of the many examples of how men can invent a false doctrine, and twist the Bible around to deceive people into supporting it. Ironic that the Scripture most commonly used to support it is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, verses that mention absolutely nothing about a tribulation. The only indication it gives as to when this event will happen is, “at the sound of the archangel’s voice, and God’s trumpet.”(verse 16) Matthew 24:31 also refers to a trumpet blast, which is clearly shown to be AFTER the tribulation, when all of Matthew 24 is read in context. Now, one might say, that maybe that is referring to two different trumpet blasts. That argument doesn’t work, however, because 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 is also used to support a pre-tribulational rapture, and in verse 52, it says, “at the sound of the last trumpet.” So, how could the trumpet of Matthew 24:31 occur 7 years later, if the trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the “last” trumpet. How do so many earnest “Bible believing” Christians miss something so blatant? Well, they may have been taught to associate the trumpet with Revelation 4:1. That is poor theology, however, because an honest look at Revelation 4:1 will suggest four things. First, Revelation 4:1 references the trumpet-like voice to the trumpet-like voice in Revelation 1:10, by saying that it, “had spoken to me before.” Reading from Revelation 1:10-18 strongly suggests that the voice was of Jesus, NOT some angel. So, first off, the voice in Revelation 4:1 neither falls under the category of, “the archangel’s voice,” nor “God’s trumpet.” Secondly, there is absolutely nothing about Revelation 4:1 that even remotely hints that “come up here” is referring to some future event that will happen to all “believers,” of, “the invisible church.” In context, John is merely describing what happened to him, enabling him to see the visions that he would write down, the visions themselves being of the future, not the “come up here” process by which the visions were revealed to him. Thirdly, there are more trumpets referred to in the Book of Revelation, so even if Revelation 4:1 spoke of a real trumpet, which it does not, it still would not be the “last” trumpet. Finally, the events of Revelation 4:1 have John going up, but no indication whatsoever of Jesus coming down. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 has Jesus coming down. Still not convinced? Look at Acts 3:21. “Jesus must remain in Heaven until the time of universal restoration which God spoke of long ago through His holy prophets.” Notice, it says “until the time of universal restoration.” It does not say, “Until seven years before the time of universal restoration,” as the pre-tribulational rapture requires. Parts of Daniel 11 mention events that occur during what would come to be known as the tribulation. Jesus references this in Matthew 24:15. Daniel 12:1 mentions the arrival of the archangel Michael. Then, Daniel 12:2 says “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake; some shall live forever, others shall be an everlasting horror and disgrace.” Again, this shows a sequence that indicates that the events that are described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 take place AFTER the tribulation, not before it. Meanwhile, the “come up here,” event of Revelation 4:1 had already taken place, so that John could see much of what he would write about in Revelation. There is absolutely no mention whatsoever of a pre-tribulational rapture in the writings of the Church Fathers. Surely, the Nicene Creed would have mentioned it, if it were true. Yet, so many Christians so adamantly believe this totally faulty doctrine that was invented by a man named John Darby, back in the 1800s. Prior to that time, no Christians believed that heretical unbiblical doctrine. So, how is it possible that so many “Sola-Scriptura” Christians believe this doctrine that contradicts Scripture? THEY WERE TAUGHT IT!!! People don’t come up with this doctrine based on their own interpretation of Scripture. Its popularity in “Christian” movies, music, television, radio, and evangelical protestant churches is what fuels this belief, along with erroneous liner notes in some Bible translations. So, anyone who claims to be “Sola-Scriptura,” yet believes in a pre-tribulational rapture is completely deceived. They did NOT trust the Bible alone, but trusted a faulty teaching, placing a tradition of man ahead of the Word of God.
 
Zenas,

Here’s another interesting thought. Even if we grant that Rapture refers to the end times, we need only read the words introducing this scenario to see the flaw in a Rapture interpretation. “As were the days of Noah…the flood came and swept them all away” (Mt 24:37,39). In the days of Noah, the wicked were taken by flood waters and the righteous (Noah and his family) were left behind in safety. If the Rapture teachers are correct in thinking that this passage applies to the close of the age, then it would seem to prove the opposite of what they teach about who gets taken (i.e. the wicked were taken) and who gets left behind (i.e. the righteous – Noah and his family, were left behind).
Remove Israel from its own prophecy, and you will be all confused and squeeze many events of the day of the Lord in one moment. Luke 17:26-27 says the world will be living life with no belief in Gods wrath to be poured upon the earth. Enoch’s translation directly to heaven could be symbolic of the stealing away of Christ taking his bride to Heaven. Noah’s entry into the Ark could be symbolized as the sealed Jews riding out the wrath and judgement being poured out on the world in that time. There is so much more to this, but if you do not believe Israel is not in God’s prophectic plan, then good luck with interpreting many “mystical layers and symbols” scripture has to offer.
 
Well, here’s my take on it…
I find this to be one of the more puzzling doctrines out there, in that an honest look at Scripture can rather easily debunk it. If you firmly believe that the Bible shows a pre-tribulational rapture, then that is just one of the many examples of how men can invent a false doctrine, and twist the Bible around to deceive people into supporting it. Ironic that the Scripture most commonly used to support it is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, verses that mention absolutely nothing about a tribulation. The only indication it gives as to when this event will happen is, “at the sound of the archangel’s voice, and God’s trumpet.”(verse 16) Matthew 24:31 also refers to a trumpet blast, which is clearly shown to be AFTER the tribulation, when all of Matthew 24 is read in context. Now, one might say, that maybe that is referring to two different trumpet blasts. That argument doesn’t work, however, because 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 is also used to support a pre-tribulational rapture, and in verse 52, it says, “at the sound of the last trumpet.” So, how could the trumpet of Matthew 24:31 occur 7 years later, if the trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the “last” trumpet. How do so many earnest “Bible believing” Christians miss something so blatant? Well, they may have been taught to associate the trumpet with Revelation 4:1. That is poor theology, however, because an honest look at Revelation 4:1 will suggest four things. First, Revelation 4:1 references the trumpet-like voice to the trumpet-like voice in Revelation 1:10, by saying that it, “had spoken to me before.” Reading from Revelation 1:10-18 strongly suggests that the voice was of Jesus, NOT some angel. So, first off, the voice in Revelation 4:1 neither falls under the category of, “the archangel’s voice,” nor “God’s trumpet.” Secondly, there is absolutely nothing about Revelation 4:1 that even remotely hints that “come up here” is referring to some future event that will happen to all “believers,” of, “the invisible church.” In context, John is merely describing what happened to him, enabling him to see the visions that he would write down, the visions themselves being of the future, not the “come up here” process by which the visions were revealed to him. Thirdly, there are more trumpets referred to in the Book of Revelation, so even if Revelation 4:1 spoke of a real trumpet, which it does not, it still would not be the “last” trumpet. Finally, the events of Revelation 4:1 have John going up, but no indication whatsoever of Jesus coming down. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 has Jesus coming down. Still not convinced? Look at Acts 3:21. “Jesus must remain in Heaven until the time of universal restoration which God spoke of long ago through His holy prophets.” Notice, it says “until the time of universal restoration.” It does not say, “Until seven years before the time of universal restoration,” as the pre-tribulational rapture requires. Parts of Daniel 11 mention events that occur during what would come to be known as the tribulation. Jesus references this in Matthew 24:15. Daniel 12:1 mentions the arrival of the archangel Michael. Then, Daniel 12:2 says “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake; some shall live forever, others shall be an everlasting horror and disgrace.” Again, this shows a sequence that indicates that the events that are described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 take place AFTER the tribulation, not before it. Meanwhile, the “come up here,” event of Revelation 4:1 had already taken place, so that John could see much of what he would write about in Revelation. There is absolutely no mention whatsoever of a pre-tribulational rapture in the writings of the Church Fathers. Surely, the Nicene Creed would have mentioned it, if it were true. Yet, so many Christians so adamantly believe this totally faulty doctrine that was invented by a man named John Darby, back in the 1800s. Prior to that time, no Christians believed that heretical unbiblical doctrine. So, how is it possible that so many “Sola-Scriptura” Christians believe this doctrine that contradicts Scripture? THEY WERE TAUGHT IT!!! People don’t come up with this doctrine based on their own interpretation of Scripture. Its popularity in “Christian” movies, music, television, radio, and evangelical protestant churches is what fuels this belief, along with erroneous liner notes in some Bible translations. So, anyone who claims to be “Sola-Scriptura,” yet believes in a pre-tribulational rapture is completely deceived. They did NOT trust the Bible alone, but trusted a faulty teaching, placing a tradition of man ahead of the Word of God.
I just “debunked” everything you wrote, because Israel, the people and the land, has been removed from it’s own prophecy. You can only use the “Darby” and “sola scriptura” excuses for so long.
Its as simple as that.
 
I just “debunked” everything you wrote, because Israel, the people and the land, has been removed from it’s own prophecy. You can only use the “Darby” and “sola scriptura” excuses for so long.
Its as simple as that.
You debunked abolutely NOTHING that I wrote, so get off of your prideful high horse. SHOW ME THE RAPTURE, as something you can pull out FROM Scripture, rather than trying to bring it INTO Scripture by the false theology that YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT and fell for, hook, line and sinker since your theological foundation is quicksand. As I mentioned, even Sola-Scriptura can not honestly arrive at a Pre-Tribulational rapture, so rather than you acting all prideful and arrogant, I challenge you to point by point try to “debunk everything” I have said, rather than spouting out ignorance and pride. I’m right. 1,800 years of united(on this issue) Christianity are right. John Darby, who had no divine authority whatsoever to invent or clarify doctrines, is wrong. You, who have fallen for his deceptive theory, are wrong. “It’s as simple as that.”
 
The whole “Rapture thing” was started by John Nelson Darby a defrocked Anglican Priest (because of his wacky ideas). Darby got the basis of the Rapture concept from the “visions” of a mentally disturbed young lady named Margaret MacDonald. Darby taught this “doctrine” which was picked up by an American named C.I. Schofield, a convicted felon who was found guilty of fraud and political corruption as a government official. Along with this he abandoned his wife and children. Schofield wrote and published the famous or “infamous” “Schofield Reference Bible” which embodied the ideas of Darby along with Schofield’s own ideas as well. Because of this “reference Bible” the whole premillenialist/dispensationalist/rapturist "doctrine caught on in many if not all fundamentalist Christian Churches. Schofield had no credentials as a Bible Scholar or little if any formal theological training. Evangelicals relish telling Catholics that Catholic beliefs are man-made and unbiblical “invented” dogma. The sad truth is that this whole Dispensationalist/Rapture idea was unheard of before Darby and Schofield came along.
 
When you read the Bible and see doctrines that no one saw for the first 1800 years of Christianity, red flags should go up.
 
When you read the Bible and see doctrines that no one saw for the first 1800 years of Christianity, red flags should go up.
Before you go that far, I would look at the first red flag. That is the teaching that Israel, the land and the people, are cut from their own prophecy. All those anti-Israel writings over the years. How far does that belief go? Waaaay back there.
 
After reading this, I realize I must have been taught premilenialism. But I’m happy to say I’m set in good Catholic teaching. In middle and high school I attended a church camp that showed several movies regarding the rapture. Of course everyone wanted to be saved and not be “left behind”. There were songs I sang at that camp about being “caught up in the blink of an eye” and “like a thief in the night” and I even bought into it and was scared, although some common sense must have reached me, because I dispelled it as a myth. I did read several Christian books about Zion in high school and the “Left Behind” series in college until book 7 when I suddendly saw how ficticious it was and started to realize it was anti Catholic (by that time I’d been attending a Catholic church for a few years but had not yet converted. I was raised Episcopal and rememberd the part of the creed that says “And he will come again to judge the living and the dead”. There is also some verse I remember reading during that church camp’s devotion time perhaps in Galations, that gave me comfort about Jesus not returning to Earth until all have had a chance to hear the word of God. So according to all the missionaries I heard at that camp and also at several different Bible churches, there are so many people who haven’t heard the word of God that it will take years to preach the gospel to everyone. That debunked the instant secret rapture in my mind. I also had trouble answering the question “are you saved” since I felt salvation was something to be constantly worked out in fear and trembling and only accomplished through the grace of God even at the young age of 7 or 8. Which is also when I read Pilgirms Progress and saw it as a metaphor for our journey to heaven and all the sacrifices we must make along the way to enter through the narrow gate. I’m still trying to get this “all straight” as far and my beliefs, but after being taught so many conflicting things in my younger years, I’m amazed that God’s grace led me to read the Bible and “interpret” as closely to the Catholic teachings as I did. I love the traditions of the church and learned a lot in my RCIA class. I may go again just for a refresher someday.
 
After reading this, I realize I must have been taught premilenialism. But I’m happy to say I’m set in good Catholic teaching. In middle and high school I attended a church camp that showed several movies regarding the rapture. Of course everyone wanted to be saved and not be “left behind”. There were songs I sang at that camp about being “caught up in the blink of an eye” and “like a thief in the night” and I even bought into it and was scared, although some common sense must have reached me, because I dispelled it as a myth. I did read several Christian books about Zion in high school and the “Left Behind” series in college until book 7 when I suddendly saw how ficticious it was and started to realize it was anti Catholic (by that time I’d been attending a Catholic church for a few years but had not yet converted. I was raised Episcopal and rememberd the part of the creed that says “And he will come again to judge the living and the dead”. There is also some verse I remember reading during that church camp’s devotion time perhaps in Galations, that gave me comfort about Jesus not returning to Earth until all have had a chance to hear the word of God. So according to all the missionaries I heard at that camp and also at several different Bible churches, there are so many people who haven’t heard the word of God that it will take years to preach the gospel to everyone. That debunked the instant secret rapture in my mind. I also had trouble answering the question “are you saved” since I felt salvation was something to be constantly worked out in fear and trembling and only accomplished through the grace of God even at the young age of 7 or 8. Which is also when I read Pilgirms Progress and saw it as a metaphor for our journey to heaven and all the sacrifices we must make along the way to enter through the narrow gate. I’m still trying to get this “all straight” as far and my beliefs, but after being taught so many conflicting things in my younger years, I’m amazed that God’s grace led me to read the Bible and “interpret” as closely to the Catholic teachings as I did. I love the traditions of the church and learned a lot in my RCIA class. I may go again just for a refresher someday.
I’d say your on a good start and it seems that you do have it “all straight.” Don’t let the slick talking of rapture-enthusiaists fool you or let their clever Biblical arguments get you down. Know that you have the whole truth in the Catholic church and you will be fine.

ChadS
 
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