C
catholic-rcia
Guest
How would we compare the RCIA program to the program the LDS use? Would be good to share in this.
God Bless
God Bless
- Status
P
puzzleannie
Guest
without knowing anything about the rites used by LDS to initiate persons into their faith, I would state categorically there is no comparison at all, except possible in some superficial way. The Rites of Chrisitian Initiation culminate in sacraments instituted by Jesus Christ, baptism, confirmation and Eucharist, none of which is enjoyed by the LDS sect. The formation is based on Divine Revelation through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, both of which are rejected by LDS and replaced by the Book of Mormon and the private revelation of subsequent LDS leaders.
F
flameburns623
Guest
I think that the original poster was probably thinking of how the catechetical materials used in RCIA stack up against the Missionary Discussions of the LDS Church. Correct me if I am mistaken.
It is worth knowing that the LDS Church claims that all of it’s ordinances are established by Jesus Christ, and that these include the ordinances of baptism, confirmation, blessing of the Sacrament, and ordination to the LDS priesthood. The Mormon Church places at least as high an emphasis upon ‘priesthood authority’ as the RCC does on the Eucharist. Of course, few outside of the LDS Church give credence to how the founders of Mormonism purport to have miraculously received that authority.
It is not so much that the Bible is rejected or supplanted by later revelations as that it is interpreted via the prism of those later revelations. Contemporary LDS apologists cull the record of what you term ‘Sacred Tradition’ for hints and evidences of the peculiar doctrines of Mormonism, however credible one might deem those efforts. Obviously they do not deem Roman Catholic Tradition to be authoritative.
M
majick275
Guest
It is my understanding that the current LDS missionary discussions have been cut down to four.
In any case The missionaries normally conduct the RCIA equivalent and do this in a “one on one” setting. One family if applicable or individual as the case may be. The discussions are normally taught in the home of the individual being taught but are sometimes done at the home of a member. (especially if the folks being taught were referred to the missionaries by a member).
The intent appears to be get the people baptized as soon as possible. Usually they are asked about this on the second discussion. The missionaries will wait until the individual(s) say they are ready but there is definitely a lot of emphasis on a quick baptism.
The individuals are asked to attend a sunday school class that is geared for “newbies” when they first start coming to church and usually stay in that class for some time. (up to a year in many cases).
Once baptized they are subsequently confirmed and if male and old enough are ordained into the aaronic or lesser priesthood.
They are soon given a “calling” so that they will be involved with their new church and receive the various monthly visitations that are common to the LDS church.
That is pretty much the LDS conversion process. Not really similar to RCIA at all but it accomplishes what they want it too.
In any case The missionaries normally conduct the RCIA equivalent and do this in a “one on one” setting. One family if applicable or individual as the case may be. The discussions are normally taught in the home of the individual being taught but are sometimes done at the home of a member. (especially if the folks being taught were referred to the missionaries by a member).
The intent appears to be get the people baptized as soon as possible. Usually they are asked about this on the second discussion. The missionaries will wait until the individual(s) say they are ready but there is definitely a lot of emphasis on a quick baptism.
The individuals are asked to attend a sunday school class that is geared for “newbies” when they first start coming to church and usually stay in that class for some time. (up to a year in many cases).
Once baptized they are subsequently confirmed and if male and old enough are ordained into the aaronic or lesser priesthood.
They are soon given a “calling” so that they will be involved with their new church and receive the various monthly visitations that are common to the LDS church.
That is pretty much the LDS conversion process. Not really similar to RCIA at all but it accomplishes what they want it too.
P
paul_barlow
Guest
The missionary discussions have not been cut down they have been expanded to a 228 page book PREACH MY GOSPEL. there is no set time for commitments the missionaries are to teach to the investigators ability to understand. If you get a chance buy one you may see what i mean.
anything wrong in giving people a responsability it helps them to grow. Does your church not try to get the new convert actively involved.
M
Mom_of_5
Guest
When my husband converted to Catholicism (from LDS), I went through RCIA with him. According to him, there are many differences in the conversion process. RCIA began in September, the class met every week for 2+ hours and ends in Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist on Easter, and then there are follow up classes. Everyone was encouraged to ask questions, if the moderater was unsure of the answer, he/she did research on the subject. I have read the lessons of the LDS, they are not at all in depth, and asking questions is not exactly encouraged. LDS want you to know what they want you to know until after you are Baptised. Going to RCIA class is not a committment to join the church as sitting in on the LDS lessons are not a committment. However, no pressure is put on by the Catholic presenters to join. Much pressure is put on by LDS. RCIA is a means to investigage the Catholic faith, then the decision is made. Very often, the investigator attends RCIA several times before a decision is made. The Catholic Church want members to know and understand as much as possible before joining. LDS, learn later.
I am aware that there are LDS who will say this in not true, however, it is. My dentist’s son is a missionary. A very nice young man. He has beeen chastised for not having baptised any converts yet and he has been on mission for two months. He is serving in Mexico. My husband baptised his sons wife before they were married. (He was LDS then.) He had the missionaries give the lessons quickly, then she was converted. She had been Catholic. Shortly after, my husband blessed his baby granddaughter in the LDS faith. Since then, my husband has converted to Catholicism, the daughter-in-law and son are divorced, she has gone back to the Catholic Church and her daughter and son are baptised and confirmed Catholics. EX-daughter-in-law has told me how quickly her “conversion” was and that she had no idea what she was doing. She was 17 at the time.
I have good LDS friends and husbands relatives who are LDS. LDS are very interested in numbers of members more than anything. They ARE trying to change the rate of “in the front door, out the back”, but this will take time.
I believe that we must all know our own faith so that we can explain our beliefs, before we study anothers. The LDS I know, for the most part, are good kind people, no different than Catholic friends and relatives. I find Catholics are far more open to talking about the Church, critizing the Church openly, etc., than LDS. It is often difficult to bring them to discuss anything about their religion
Love and peace,
Mom of 5
I am aware that there are LDS who will say this in not true, however, it is. My dentist’s son is a missionary. A very nice young man. He has beeen chastised for not having baptised any converts yet and he has been on mission for two months. He is serving in Mexico. My husband baptised his sons wife before they were married. (He was LDS then.) He had the missionaries give the lessons quickly, then she was converted. She had been Catholic. Shortly after, my husband blessed his baby granddaughter in the LDS faith. Since then, my husband has converted to Catholicism, the daughter-in-law and son are divorced, she has gone back to the Catholic Church and her daughter and son are baptised and confirmed Catholics. EX-daughter-in-law has told me how quickly her “conversion” was and that she had no idea what she was doing. She was 17 at the time.
I have good LDS friends and husbands relatives who are LDS. LDS are very interested in numbers of members more than anything. They ARE trying to change the rate of “in the front door, out the back”, but this will take time.
I believe that we must all know our own faith so that we can explain our beliefs, before we study anothers. The LDS I know, for the most part, are good kind people, no different than Catholic friends and relatives. I find Catholics are far more open to talking about the Church, critizing the Church openly, etc., than LDS. It is often difficult to bring them to discuss anything about their religion
Love and peace,
Mom of 5
M
majick275
Guest
paul barlow:
I was referring to the number of discussions rather than the pages in them.(my only criticism being that I think LDS missionaries have a tendency to “rush” converts into the LDs church before they know enough to make a truly informed decision)
I believe I stated that the missionaries will wait until the individuals say they are ready.
Catholic RCIA has a post conversion period called mystagogia.
Here is a good “quick” definition of what that entails :
newman-asu.org/ministries/lit_corner/lit_mystagogia.htm
I’m sorry, I didn’t think I was criticizing that.(giving new converts callings)
I was referring to the number of discussions rather than the pages in them.(my only criticism being that I think LDS missionaries have a tendency to “rush” converts into the LDs church before they know enough to make a truly informed decision)
I believe I stated that the missionaries will wait until the individuals say they are ready.
Catholic RCIA has a post conversion period called mystagogia.
Here is a good “quick” definition of what that entails :
newman-asu.org/ministries/lit_corner/lit_mystagogia.htm
M
Mom_of_5
Guest
Catholic church does try to get converts involved in the parish. Some parishes are more active in this than others. We could learn a lesson from LDS in this. But again, a complaint I hear from LDS, when they “open up”, is that they are expected to have too much church time(callings) sometimes at the expense of thier families. My husband admits that all the time he spent on his “callings” helped his family to fall apart. Literally! When he went to the then Bishop, and other church leaders for help, they turned the other way and told him his callings were to be #1 in his life. That is when he made the final decision to quit. When he hears that LDS are more family oriented than any other religion, he really burns. He feels that it is a reputation that the LDS has set for themselves but have not proven it internally. So, a good balance in family, church, community is necessary for everyone, no matter what religion we embrace. There are Catholics and “other” denominations, that put church duties ahead of family. I don’t think this is what God intended.
Love and peace,
Mom of 5
Love and peace,
Mom of 5
F
flameburns623
Guest
The Missionary Discussions used to include several post-baptismal follow-up lessons but I don’t know how many there were.
P
paul_barlow
Guest
there are six lessons taught by both the missionaries and members. not sure if preach my gospel has taken over from them.
T
TOmNossor
Guest
The RCIA program is a far superior education than the missionary discussions.
There is more education, more information, more structure, more feedback, more … it is just more (at least based upon my understanding of what happens in RCIA).
RCIA instructors are not always better than 19-21 year old missionaries with respect to knowledge, but the structured curriculum is definitely better.
I debate if this would not be something that LDS could learn from Catholics. I am very much into learning, understanding, and being informed. Others are not. I think it is sad when people become LDS and cease to be LDS when they discover that Blacks once did not have the priesthood. RCIA is thorough enough that if LDS paralleled it this would be taught. At the same time, orthopraxy does not require the in-depth doctrinal instruction orthodoxy requires. One can give up their Catholicism simply by rejecting the inerrancy of the Pope, debatably even if they did so out of ignorance of what it really was. And while the history of the priesthood would be covered in enough depth to include the 1978 change (if LDS paralleled RCIA), there are certainly things not covered in RCIA that reflect negatively upon the Catholic Church. No religion actively teaches the most difficult aspects of their history.
Cradle LDS and new converts receive far superior continuing education in the CoJCoLDS than do cradle Catholics or RCIA graduates. Active and ignorant LDS are far less common than are active and ignorant Catholics. This is an area in which the Catholic Church could learn from the CoJCoLDS. We receive about 2.5 hours of religious instruction on Sunday and often another hour or so during the week. We have regular extended sessions that involve teaching from our leaders. Only the very rare Catholic will really engage a Papal Bull or some book written by the Pope.
Anyway, I would rather have deep religious discussions everyday with new and experienced members alike, but I am an exception. I am unsure if increased pre-Baptism education is today necessary. I am sure that some missions have been negligent in following the spirit of pre-Baptism education in the past, but I think this has been largely corrected.
Charity, TOm
There is more education, more information, more structure, more feedback, more … it is just more (at least based upon my understanding of what happens in RCIA).
RCIA instructors are not always better than 19-21 year old missionaries with respect to knowledge, but the structured curriculum is definitely better.
I debate if this would not be something that LDS could learn from Catholics. I am very much into learning, understanding, and being informed. Others are not. I think it is sad when people become LDS and cease to be LDS when they discover that Blacks once did not have the priesthood. RCIA is thorough enough that if LDS paralleled it this would be taught. At the same time, orthopraxy does not require the in-depth doctrinal instruction orthodoxy requires. One can give up their Catholicism simply by rejecting the inerrancy of the Pope, debatably even if they did so out of ignorance of what it really was. And while the history of the priesthood would be covered in enough depth to include the 1978 change (if LDS paralleled RCIA), there are certainly things not covered in RCIA that reflect negatively upon the Catholic Church. No religion actively teaches the most difficult aspects of their history.
Cradle LDS and new converts receive far superior continuing education in the CoJCoLDS than do cradle Catholics or RCIA graduates. Active and ignorant LDS are far less common than are active and ignorant Catholics. This is an area in which the Catholic Church could learn from the CoJCoLDS. We receive about 2.5 hours of religious instruction on Sunday and often another hour or so during the week. We have regular extended sessions that involve teaching from our leaders. Only the very rare Catholic will really engage a Papal Bull or some book written by the Pope.
Anyway, I would rather have deep religious discussions everyday with new and experienced members alike, but I am an exception. I am unsure if increased pre-Baptism education is today necessary. I am sure that some missions have been negligent in following the spirit of pre-Baptism education in the past, but I think this has been largely corrected.
Charity, TOm
A
amgid
Guest
Without knowing anything about the RCIA, I would hazard a guess that you are probably quite right!
Not knowing anything about the RCIA, and judging by what little I have understood about it from this thread, I would say that the LDS equivalent of RCIA is expressed in varios passages in LDS scripture as follows:
Moroni 6:
1 And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.
2 Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.
3 And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.
4 And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.
5 And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls.
6 And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus.
D&C 20:
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism–All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.
68 The duty of the members after they are received by baptism.–The elders or priests are to have a sufficient time to expound all things concerning the church of Christ to their understanding, previous to their partaking of the sacrament and being confirmed by the laying on of the hands of the elders, so that all things may be done in order.
69 And the members shall manifest before the church, and also before the elders, by a godly walk and conversation, that they are worthy of it, that there may be works and faith agreeable to the holy scriptures–walking in holiness before the Lord.
70 Every member of the church of Christ having children is to bring them unto the elders before the church, who are to lay their hands upon them in the name of Jesus Christ, and bless them in his name.
71 No one can be received into the church of Christ unless he has arrived unto the years of accountability before God, and is capable of repentance.
I am not quite sure what you meant by that, or how you came to that conclusion; but it is to be expected that the rites of the Catholic Church, being the remnants of an apostate institution, should have departed considerably after so many centuries from the pure practices of the Primitive Church, as it has now been restored by revelation to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
We certainly accept “Sacred Scripture;” but reject the Sacred Tradition, as a reliable source of Church practice and doctrine.
“Replaced” is not the correct word. “Added to” might have been more appropriate.
amgid
M
majick275
Guest
I would disagree with you on this TOm.
To put all cradle catholics (or even converts) in the same boat on this subject is overlooking alot.
Those who attend Catholic Schools receive religious education every day from preschool on up. There is also SSR which provides at least an equivalent opportunity in comparison to LDS sunday services.
There is also daily mass, CYO, structured weekly scripture study and a host of other forums for continuing education. That there are many Catholics who choose not avail themselves of these should not be seen as a reflection of their lack of value.
How many LDS classes are taught by “qualified” instructors? I assert that it depends on where you live. I would further posit that it is the current LDS practice to keep classes on doctrine focused on the basics. Deep theological study appears to be dicouraged by Boyd Packer and others who insist on showing only that which is faith promoting in church education.
To put all cradle catholics (or even converts) in the same boat on this subject is overlooking alot.
Those who attend Catholic Schools receive religious education every day from preschool on up. There is also SSR which provides at least an equivalent opportunity in comparison to LDS sunday services.
There is also daily mass, CYO, structured weekly scripture study and a host of other forums for continuing education. That there are many Catholics who choose not avail themselves of these should not be seen as a reflection of their lack of value.
How many LDS classes are taught by “qualified” instructors? I assert that it depends on where you live. I would further posit that it is the current LDS practice to keep classes on doctrine focused on the basics. Deep theological study appears to be dicouraged by Boyd Packer and others who insist on showing only that which is faith promoting in church education.
R
Robert_in_SD
Guest
TOm;
I would agree with you in part. I think there are some excellent Catholic adult education opportunities available, but for whatever reason most Catholics dont’ perceive the need to attend these types of classes. My personal opinion is that many Catholics simply don’t perceive the need to delve into the reasons for what they believe, and others prefer not to look too closely, so they can remain blissfully ignorant of how their daily lives depart from church teaching - i.e. birth control, obligation to attend mass, reconciliation, etc.
B
Brad_Haas
Guest
Preach My Gospel has a “Study and Teach” chapter for the missionaries’ presentations. It’s divided into five sections. Each one has a bunch of material to use to teach people, and then suggested lesson plans for presenting that material. I’ll list each section, and in parentheses list the main points of each as given in the book.
- The Restoration (God is our loving Father, families are blessed, the Father reveals Himself, the Son came to earth and carried out the Atonement, there was an apostasy, there was a restoration, the Book of Mormon is introduced, and if you pray about it the Holy Ghost will tell you it’s true.) Also, the book says not to hesitate during the first or any other discussion to invite the person to be baptized.
- The Plan of Salvation (pre-existence, God’s plan, creation, agency, life on earth, atonement, spirit wiorld, the three kingdoms of glory)
- The Gospel of Jesus Christ (we can be cleansed from sin, faith in Jesus, repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, endure to the end) The person should be willing to commit to baptism by now.
- The Commandments (there’s no suggested lesson plan for this one, only material. It concerns obedience, prayer, studying the scriptures, keeping the Sabbath, being baptized and confirmed, following the prophet, keeping the Ten Commandments, living the law of chastity, obeying the word of wisdom, tithing, and fasting)
- Laws and Ordinances (also no lesson plan. Material covers priesthood and auxiliaries, missionary work, eternal marriage, temples, service, teaching and learning, and enduring to the end)
- Status