The Real Presence: Augustine

[Janet_S]

From that link

This in a sermon on Easter to the neophytes, a perfect time for speaking of the glorified body of Christ, he said:

I haven’t forgotten my promise. I had promised those of you who have just been baptized a sermon to explain the sacrament of the Lord’s table, which yo can see right now, and which you shared in last night. You ought to know what you have received, what you are about to receive, what you ought to receive every day. That bread which you can see on the altar, sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That cup, or rather what the cup contains, sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ. It was by means of these things that the Lord Christ wished to present us with his body and blood, which he shed for our sake for the forgiveness of sins. If you receive them well, you are yourselves what you receive. You see, the apostles says, We, being many, are one loaf, one body (1 Cor 10.17). That’s how he explained the sacrament of the Lord’s table; one loaf, one body, is what we all are, many though we be. In this loaf of bread you are given clear to understand how much you should love unity. I mean, what that loaf made from one grain? Weren’t there many grains of wheat? But before they came into the loaf they were all separate; they were joined together by means of water after a certain amount of pounding and crushing. Unless wheat is ground, after all, and moistened with water, it can’t possibly bet into this shape which is called bread. In the same way you too were being ground and pounded, as it were, by the humiliation of fasting and the sacrament of exorcism. then came baptism, and you were, in a manner of speaking, moistened with water in order to be shaped into bread. But it’s not yet bread without fire to bake it. So what does fire represent? That’s the chrism, the anointing. Oil, the fire-feeder, you see, is the sacrament of the Holy Spirit. (26)

What do you claim this quote proves anyway? He clearly says “That bread which you can see on the altar, sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That cup, or rather what the cup contains, sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ.”

I don’t see how this sermon contradicts the Catholic belief about the Eucharist at all.

As a matter of fact, this quote of Augustine’s (from a similar sermon) is in the CCC #1396:

If you are the body and members of Christ, then it is your sacrament that is placed on the table of the Lord; it is your sacrament that you receive. To that which you are to respond “Amen” (“yes, it is true!”) and by responding to it you assent to it. For you hear the words, “the Body of Christ” and respond “Amen.” Be then a member of the Body of Christ that your Amen may be true.St. Augustine, Sermo 272: PL 38, 1247.

There are many layers of understanding to what is meant by the term “body of Christ.” We Catholics believe in the mystical body of Christ as described in 1 Corinthians.

This is CCC #1396:

The unity of the Mystical Body: the Eucharist makes the Church. Those who receive the Eucharist are united more closely to Christ. Through it Christ unites them to all the faithful in one body - the Church. Communion renews, strengthens, and deepens this incorporation into the Church, already achieved by Baptism. In Baptism we have been called to form but one body. The Eucharist fulfills this call: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? the bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread:”

Belief in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist is compatible with belief in the mystical body of Christ. Catholics today, just like Augustine, believe both.

 

[mgrfin]

I request that you point out my error or retract your statements!
Likewise for Rbt Southwell

Administration didn’t like the tone of this thread, and where it was going.

I can understand their view with your demands for pointing out errors, and retraction of statements.

peace

 

[myfavoritmartin]

What do you claim this quote proves anyway? He clearly says “That bread which you can see on the altar, sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That cup, or rather what the cup contains, sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ.”

I don’t see how this sermon contradicts the Catholic belief about the Eucharist at all.

As a matter of fact, this quote of Augustine’s (from a similar sermon) is in the CCC #1396:

There are many layers of understanding to what is meant by the term “body of Christ.” We Catholics believe in the mystical body of Christ as described in 1 Corinthians.

This is CCC #1396:

Belief in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist is compatible with belief in the mystical body of Christ. Catholics today, just like Augustine, believe both.

Do you have all of sermon 272 Janet? Have you read it? I have and this quote is out of context and should not be used to substantiate your position without the full sermon otherwise it seems disengenuos.
Peace,
Simon

 

[Church_Militant]

MFM,

Are you back again?!

Anyway, IMO this particular quote of Augustine’s is neither here nor there, but this one is.

"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."

Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.

Even if I was a Sola Scriptura n-C I’d still have to believe in the Eucharist Real Presence, after all, The Eucharist IS Scriptural

 

[myfavoritmartin]

MFM,

Are you back again?!

Anyway, IMO this particular quote of Augustine’s is neither here nor there, but this one is.

"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."

Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.

Even if I was a Sola Scriptura n-C I’d still have to believe in the Eucharist Real Presence, after all, The Eucharist IS Scriptural

Momentarily only, how are Michael?
I’ve been confronted with that quote for 2 years and NO one has ever shown in context, I was excited to see it and post it.
Take care friend!
I’ll try to stick for awhile, for the FUN of it

Michael, I’d like to see that quote in context you don’t have a link do you?

 

[Janet_S]

Do you have all of sermon 272 Janet? Have you read it? I have and this quote is out of context and should not be used to substantiate your position without the full sermon otherwise it seems disengenuos.
Peace,
Simon

His sermon is right here. I read it, and I’m still not sure what your argument is. I wasn’t being disingenuous by quoting only a part of it, I was just pointing out that Augustine doesn’t contradict Catholic teaching, and that the Catechism uses his sermon in support of Catholic teaching.
americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/augustine/sermon272.htm

My question remains, what is your argument and in what way is Augustine contradicting what we Catholics believe? Where does he deny the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

Like I said before, there are many layers to the understanding of the meaning of “the body of Christ.” Catholics believe in the Mystical body of Christ (1 Corinthians) as well as the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. You can read this in the Catechism. You really should try to understand what we believe before you start to argue against it.

 

[mgrfin]

I request that you point out my error or retract your statements!
Likewise for Rbt Southwell

I just realized how old this thread is, and that I have responded to it in parts seemingly a long time ago.

I disagree with MFM that the quotes from Augustine doesn’t point to a belief in the Eucharist like our’s, which is 1600 years ago. I must certainly do believe it does.

I also would like to say that some of our Protestant brothers who are posting here, MFM, for example, is so entusiastic about Augustine’s sermon. The sermon, in whole or part, for me as a practicing Catholic, reflects my belief in the Eucharist. He believes he has found that Augustine believed the Eucharist was something spiritual, not Real. But it is something spiritual, and it is something Real. Maybe that is where the problem is. How spirititually we are connected with the Lord Jesus when we receive him in this Sacrament, and how Really we receive him. We have a hard time explaining this Spiritual and Real experience in receiving the Lord in this Sacrament.

Our non-Catholic brethren have to allow us to have our faith and belief in this Sacrament. It is we who believe in it, receive it, and experience it. It is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, really present, whole and entire.

Why won’t they allow us to have this Sacrament? Do they believe that such a Sacrament and Presence is not possible for Jesus Christ?

Do they find joy and hapiness in trying to dispossess us of this belief that requires real faith, but given that faith, the Sacrament operates ‘ex opere operato’, not dependent on the faith of the recipient.

We should be allowed to have our Faith, and our beliefs undisturbed. It will then be a blessing for them as well.

O Salutaris Hostia!

peace

 

[Janet_S]

Momentarily only, how are Michael?
I’ve been confronted with that quote for 2 years and NO one has ever shown in context, I was excited to see it and post it.
Take care friend!
I’ll try to stick for awhile, for the FUN of it

Michael, I’d like to see that quote in context you don’t have a link do you?

Here’s the quote in context. It’s too long to post the whole paragraph, but you can read it here:
newadvent.org/fathers/1405.htm

Chapter 5.—Against the Title of the Epistle of Manichæus
6. Let us see then what Manichæus teaches me; and particularly let us examine that treatise which he calls the Fundamental Epistle, in which almost all that you believe is contained. For in that unhappy time when we read it we were in your opinion enlightened. The epistle begins thus:—“Manichæus, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the providence of God the Father. These are wholesome words from the perennial and living fountain.” Now, if you please, patiently give heed to my inquiry. I do not believe Manichæus to be an apostle of Christ. Do not, I beg of you, be enraged and begin to curse. For you know that it is my rule to believe none of your statements without consideration. Therefore I ask, who is this Manichæus? You will reply, An apostle of Christ. I do not believe it. Now you are at a loss what to say or do; for you promised to give knowledge of the truth, and here you are forcing me to believe what I have no knowledge of. Perhaps you will read the gospel to me, and will attempt to find there a testimony to Manichæus. But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe? For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manichæus, how can I but consent? Take your choice. If you say, Believe the Catholics: their advice to me is to put no faith in you; so that, believing them, I am precluded from believing you;—If you say, Do not believe the Catholics: you cannot fairly use the gospel in bringing me to faith in Manichæus; for it was at the command of the Catholics that I believed the gospel;—Again, if you say, You were right in believing the Catholics when they praised the gospel, but wrong in believing their vituperation of Manichæus: do you think me such a fool as to believe or not to believe as you like or dislike, without any reason? It is therefore fairer and safer by far for me, having in one instance put faith in the Catholics, not to go over to you, till, instead of bidding me believe, you make me understand something in the clearest and most open manner.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

**From that writing… **
Read me now, if you can, in the gospel where Manichæus is called an apostle, or in any other book in which I have professed to believe…
S/S

 

[myfavoritmartin]

His sermon is right here. I read it, and I’m still not sure what your argument is. I wasn’t being disingenuous by quoting only a part of it, I was just pointing out that Augustine doesn’t contradict Catholic teaching, and that the Catechism uses his sermon in support of Catholic teaching.
americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/augustine/sermon272.htm

My question remains, what is your argument and in what way is Augustine contradicting what we Catholics believe? Where does he deny the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

Like I said before, there are many layers to the understanding of the meaning of “the body of Christ.” Catholics believe in the Mystical body of Christ (1 Corinthians) as well as the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. You can read this in the Catechism. You really should try to understand what we believe before you start to argue against it.

SHAMEFUL…THAT LINK SHOULD BE CONTACTED, WHEREVER YOU GOT THAT FROM.

Janet look at your post compared to the link you provided…

YOURS
If you are the body and members of Christ, then it is your sacrament that is placed on the table of the Lord; it is your sacrament that you receive. To that which you are to respond “Amen” (“yes, it is true!”) and by responding to it you assent to it. For you hear the words, “the Body of Christ” and respond “Amen.” Be then a member of the Body of Christ that your Amen may be true.St. Augustine, Sermo 272: PL 38, 1247.
THE LINK
You, though, are the body of Christ and its members (1 Cor 12:27). So if it’s you that are the body of Christ and its members, it’s the mystery meaning you that has been placed on the Lord’s table; what you receive is the mystery that means you. It is to what you are that you reply Amen, and by so replying you express your assent. What you hear, you see, is The body of Christ, and you answer, Amen. So be a member of the body of Christ, in order to make that Amen true.

 

[Church_Militant]

Here’s the quote in context. It’s too long to post the whole paragraph, but you can read it here:
newadvent.org/fathers/1405.htm

Thanks Janet!

**From that writing… **

Read me now, if you can, in the gospel where Manichæus is called an apostle, or in any other book in which I have professed to believe…
S/SThere ya go MFM.

 

[Church_Militant]

THE LINK
You, though, are the body of Christ and its members (1 Cor 12:27). So if it’s you that are the body of Christ and its members, it’s the mystery

meaning you that has been placed on the Lord’s table; what you receive is the mystery that means you. It is to what you are that you reply Amen, and by so replying you express your assent. What you hear, you see, is The body of Christ, and you answer, Amen. So be a member of the body of Christ, in order to make that Amen true.

Gee, why do you think that it’s called “communion”, and this is of course merely one aspect of the Eucharist. Without Real Presence of Christ then how could anyone be brought into communion with another. The Eucharist is the ultimate membership in the Body of Christ this side of Heaven.

Perhaps you don’t remember but I did lay the scriptures on the Eucharist out for you. Here that is again. The Eucharist IS Scriptural

 

[NotWorthy]

Simon, I’m like Janet. What is the point of the “rest of the snippet”. We receive Sacramentally, the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in the Eucharist. (And Catholic can give me a healthy “AMEN”! on that!!!)

But spiritually, we receive the entire Body of Christ and everything It entails - The Trinity, the communion of saints, the souls of the dead, my dear aunt Yola (I humbly pray). We are all part of the Body, but until our death, never are we as real a part of the Body as when we receive Communion. (Of course, never say never, and there are exceptions to this, but typically that’s the case).

What in the post on St. Augustine disputes this.

 

[Janet_S]

**From that writing… **
Read me now, if you can, in the gospel where Manichæus is called an apostle, or in any other book in which I have professed to believe…
S/S

Augustine was not critiquing Holy Scripture. He was critiquing the document known as"The Fundamental Epistle" or the “Epistle of Foundation” which was considered inspired Scripture by the heretical group, the Manichaeans.

The Manichaeans claimed it is inspired; Augustine claimed it is not. And why doesn’t he accept “The Fundamental Epistle” as inspired? Because the Catholic Church does not accept it, and he accepts the authority of the Catholic Church.

Do you still think Augustine was not Catholic? Read chapter 4 if you are still in doubt:

Chapter 4.—Proofs of the Catholic Faith
5. For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual men attain in this life, so as to know it, in the scantiest measure, indeed, because they are but men, still without any uncertainty (since the rest of the multitude derive their entire security not from acuteness of intellect, but from simplicity of faith,)—not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should, though from the slowness of our understanding, or the small attainment of our life, the truth may not yet fully disclose itself. But with you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me, the promise of truth is the only thing that comes into play. Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church; but if there is only a promise without any fulfillment, no one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

SHAMEFUL…THAT LINK SHOULD BE CONTACTED, WHEREVER YOU GOT THAT FROM.

Janet look at your post compared to the link you provided…

YOURS
If you are the body and members of Christ, then it is your sacrament that is placed on the table of the Lord; it is your sacrament that you receive. To that which you are to respond “Amen” (“yes, it is true!”) and by responding to it you assent to it. For you hear the words, “the Body of Christ” and respond “Amen.” Be then a member of the Body of Christ that your Amen may be true.St. Augustine, Sermo 272: PL 38, 1247.
THE LINK
You, though, are the body of Christ and its members (1 Cor 12:27). So if it’s you that are the body of Christ and its members, it’s the mystery meaning you that has been placed on the Lord’s table; what you receive is the mystery that means you. It is to what you are that you reply Amen, and by so replying you express your assent. What you hear, you see, is The body of Christ, and you answer, Amen. So be a member of the body of Christ, in order to make that Amen true.

GUYS read this again, he is talking about “us” the ecclesial body…YOUR snippet CHANGED the words.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

GUYS read this again, he is talking about “us” the ecclesial body…YOUR snippet CHANGED the words.

My point is your new link is correct context your old is NOT.

 

[Janet_S]

SHAMEFUL…THAT LINK SHOULD BE CONTACTED, WHEREVER YOU GOT THAT FROM.

Janet look at your post compared to the link you provided…

This came from the Catechism #1396:

If you are the body and members of Christ, then it is your sacrament that is placed on the table of the Lord; it is your sacrament that you receive. To that which you are to respond “Amen” (“yes, it is true!”) and by responding to it you assent to it. For you hear the words, “the Body of Christ” and respond “Amen.” Be then a member of the Body of Christ that your Amen may be true.St. Augustine, Sermo 272: PL 38, 1247.

This came from another site:

So if it’s you that are the body of Christ and its members, it’s the mystery meaning you that has been placed on the Lord’s table; what you receive is the mystery that means you. It is to what you are that you reply Amen, and by so replying you express your assent. What you hear, you see, is The body of Christ, and you answer, Amen. So be a member of the body of Christ, in order to make that Amen true.
americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/augustine/sermon272.htm

The differences are due to translation. Augustine wrote in Latin, so he used the word “sacramentum.” The Greek language has a similar word “Mysterium.” If you are confused about the differences in the translations, you can always read what Augustine actually wrote in Latin. (It wouldn’t help me much since I don’t know Latin.)

When Latin is translated to English, the word “sacramentum” is translated either as “sacrament” or “mystery.”

If you compare the two quotes, line by line, that seems to be what the difference is. One translation uses “mystery” where the other uses “sacrament.”

1. If you are the body and members of Christ, then it is your **sacrament **that is placed on the table of the Lord;

1. So if it’s you that are the body of Christ and its members, it’s the **mystery meaning you **that has been placed on the Lord’s table;

1. it is your sacrament that you receive.

1. what you receive** is the mystery that means you**

1. To that which you are to respond “Amen” (“yes, it is true!”) and by responding to it you assent to it.

1. It is to what you are that you reply Amen, and by so replying you express your assent.

1. For you hear the words, “the Body of Christ” and respond “Amen.”

1. What you hear, you see, is The body of Christ, and you answer, Amen

.

1. Be then a member of the Body of Christ that your Amen may be true.

1. So be a member of the body of Christ, in order to make that Amen true.

You say Augustine is talking about the ecclesial body of Christ, and we Catholics agree. Yet, he does not deny the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist which he also talks about.

I’ve said it before, so has Notworthy, but I’ll repeat it because you don’t seem to understand. Catholics believe both-- the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the mystical body of Christ (1 Corinthians.)

We agree with your interpretation of what Augustine is talking about in Sermon #272. The only problem is you seem to think his teaching goes against Catholic teaching, and it does not. See CCC #1396 for verification.

 

[NotWorthy]

GUYS read this again, he is talking about “us” the ecclesial body…YOUR snippet CHANGED the words.

Simon, read my post again. The Catholic Church teaches exactly what you are saying. We do receive the Body of Christ (the part that you added, we receive Spiritually), in addition to the Body of Christ (the snippet that we’ve posted numerous times, we receive His Flesh and Blood Sacramentally), when we receive the Body of Christ. AMEN!!!

Mix hot wax with hot wax and what do you get?

It’s a clear as that, my brother!!!

 

[NotWorthy]

Simon, what did Christ say to Saul?

Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? When you hurt the Body of Christ, you are persecuting Christ Himself.

In the same way, when you receive the Flesh and Blood of Christ, you receive the entire “Body”. Augustine is showing exactly that first in the typical Catholic “snippet” that you have illustrated, in addition to the “rest of the story” that you have found.

 

[NotWorthy]

This is something that I got recently from Vinny Flynn’s “Seven Secrets of the Eucharist”. This is something the Church teaches, but many people don’t realize.

In Pope Paul VI’s encycli*cal letter on the Eucharist, Mysterium Fidei, and his great profession of faith, The “Credo” of the People of God, two phrases will help to further explain the mystery of the Eucharist. Christ is present in the Eucharist, Pope Paul explains, “as He is in heaven,” and “without leaving heaven”.

How is Christ present in heaven? Is He alone? Of course not! Christ is the second person of the Blessed Trinity, true God and true man, eternally united with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Just as there can be no separation within Christ’s human nature, so there can be none within His divine nature. Just as we cannot separate Christ’s body from His blood, or His soul from His body and blood, so we cannot separate Christ from the other persons in the Trinity.

Time after time, we hear the priest pray to the Father at the end of the opening prayer of the Mass: We ask this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, forever and ever.
In heaven, Christ “lives and reigns” together with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Christ is never alone. When He becomes present in the Eucharist as He is in heaven, without leaving heaven, this means that all of heaven is present with Him. No wonder He told us, “The kingdom of heaven is within you” (Lk 17: 21 RSV).

Christ doesn’t leave heaven to be present in the Eucharist, and His presence in the Eucharist is not different from His presence in heaven. There are many consecrated Hosts throughout the world, but Christ doesn’t multiply Himself to be present in all those different places.

There is only one Christ, only one presence of Christ, only one way Christ exists:

The unique and indivisible existence of the Lord glorious in heaven is not multiplied, but is rendered present by the Sacrament in the many places on earth where Mass is celebrated. The ‘Credo’ of the People of God

What does all this mean for you and me? It means that whenever we receive Communion, we enter into communion with the Holy Trinity. With each reception of Holy Communion, we experience, already here on earth, the same divine activity that we will one day experience in all its full*ness in heaven — the divine activity of love eternally taking place within the Trinity.

As Father M.V. Bernadot, O.P. explains:
“The Word comes to us. But He does not come alone. ‘I am in the Father and the Father in me’ (John 14:10)… ‘He who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone’ (John 8:29 RSV)… Where the Father and the Son are present, the Holy Spirit is also there. Thus, the Blessed Trinity dwells in the heart of each person receiving Communion. Jesus Himself assures us of this*: ‘If a man loves me, … my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him’ (John 14:23 RSV).

“And make our dwelling with him.” God wants to live His triune life in us. We are called to be dwelling places for the Holy Trinity and to enter into a personal relationship with each of the persons in God.

Before we jump to the wrong conclusion, there is an important theological distinction that needs to be made about the Eucharist and the Trinity. Only Christ, the second person of the Trinity, was made flesh. Only Christ assumed a human nature. So, in this wonderful encounter with the Trinity, only Christ is present sacramentally; that is, under the appearances of bread and wine. The Father and the Holy Spirit are not present sacramentally, but each is *really and truly present *with Christ because of the perfect unity of the Trinity.

But again, Simon, how else is Christ present in Heaven? With the entire Communion of Saints. That’s why we all become part of the load when enter into Communion of the Eucharist.