The Real Presence In The Eucharist

[tparsons]

Greetings all!

Need help, my wife and I just left a Catholic Church History class at our parish. Brother Paul is teaching the class and is a Franciscan Friar. We were discussing the early church and how mass was held. We are talking about the first 2 centuries. He said there was no priesthood that mass was held in housholds and taken to the sick. He also said that usually the leader of the house hold would conduct the mass similar to the way we do it today and pass around the bread called “breaking of the bread”. My question is if there was not bishop or priesthood how could the real presence be there? I thought this was through apostolic sucsession and transubstantiation.

Confused!
Tony

 

[Thal59]

tparsons:

Greetings all!

Need help, my wife and I just left a Catholic Church History class at our parish. Brother Paul is teaching the class and is a Franciscan Friar. We were discussing the early church and how mass was held. We are talking about the first 2 centuries. He said there was no priesthood that mass was held in housholds and taken to the sick. He also said that usually the leader of the house hold would conduct the mass similar to the way we do it today and pass around the bread called “breaking of the bread”. My question is if there was not bishop or priesthood how could the real presence be there? I thought this was through apostolic sucsession and transubstantiation.

Confused!
Tony

The priesthood back then was not as refined and as obvious as it is now. This was mandated by the obvious necessity of secrecy due to persecution. (It is not logical to walk around with a distinctive priestly garb in a land where they feed Christians to the lions.)

However, there was from the beginning Bishops, presbyters, and deacons. (We get the English word for priest from presbyter, albeit somewhat circuitously.)

Thal59

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

tparsons:

Greetings all!

Need help, my wife and I just left a Catholic Church History class at our parish. Brother Paul is teaching the class and is a Franciscan Friar. We were discussing the early church and how mass was held. We are talking about the first 2 centuries. He said there was no priesthood that mass was held in housholds and taken to the sick. He also said that usually the leader of the house hold would conduct the mass similar to the way we do it today and pass around the bread called “breaking of the bread”. My question is if there was not bishop or priesthood how could the real presence be there? I thought this was through apostolic sucsession and transubstantiation.

Confused!
Tony

It couldn’t. Mass was held in homes because it was illegal to practice Christianity. But could only be celebrated by Ordained priests or the Bishop of that community. It may be true that the Eucharist was brought from another celebration. In a sense like what we would call a Communion service.

 

[onesimplemind]

In the Bible there are bishops, elders, and deacons. The greek word for elder is “Presbuteros”, the latin word is “Presbyterus”.

The word “priest” in the English language evolved from the word Presbyterus/ Presbuteros. Here is how it works

“Presbuteros” (Greek) → “Presbyterus” (Latin) → “Prete” (Italian) → “Pretre” (French) → “Proest” (Old / Middle English) → “Priest” (Modern English).

The english language is descended from latin and greek and the word priest is descended from “presbuteros” which is an elder. So our priests are in fact the elders that were mentioned in the Bible.

Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 1 Timothy 5:17

Go to dictionary.com and look up the word “priest” or “presbyter”, you will find its origins.

Mention this to Brother Paul and give my regards.

 

[tparsons]

Still confused!!!

 

[JimG]

tparsons:

We were discussing the early church and how mass was held. We are talking about the first 2 centuries. He said there was no priesthood that mass was held in housholds and taken to the sick. He also said that usually the leader of the house hold would conduct the mass similar to the way we do it today and pass around the bread called “breaking of the bread”.

He is wrong. Bishops, priests (presbyters), and deacons are mentioned in the new testament. From the beginning, bishops and priests have always celebrated Mass, even when it was held in private homes. “The breaking of the bread” was the early term for the Eucharist, and it was celebrated by a priest or bishop–i.e. someone who had been ordained by the laying on of hands.

 

[tparsons]

Thank you much! So even though the new testament had not been binded as we see it today until 390 or so, there were still ordained Bishops and Priest , which he referred to as houesehold leaders?

Tony

 

[santaro75]

was it as formal as it is now with the years of formation to become a priest or deacon? or was it more about the conversion of the heart?

 

[JimG]

No, seminary formation, the way we do it now, is not something intrinsic to the priesthood. The essence of the sacrament is the laying on of hands by a bishop.

The apostles were the first bishops. They passed on their office to others by the laying on of hands. I recall in one of the epistles, that Paul advises another person whom he had ordained to be careful about the persons to whom he conveys this office by the laying on of hands. Can’t put my hands on the quote right now. Wherever he preached, he established a local church and ordained a bishop to be in charge of it.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

tparsons:

Thank you much! So even though the new testament had not been binded as we see it today until 390 or so, there were still ordained Bishops and Priest , which he referred to as houesehold leaders?

Tony

Tony,

From Saint Ignatius of Antioch, 3rd Bishop of Antioch, who studied under Saint John, spoke with Mary, the mother of Jesus, and died in 110 A.D. a martyr::
Ignatius of Antioch:

Wherever the Bishop is, there is the Catholic Church.

scripturecatholic.com

 

[Thal59]

tparsons:

Still confused!!!

There is obviously something going on in the Franciscan community. I attended a mass/ lecture just last week that was hosted by a visiting Franciscan priest. He had a few interesting degrees along with a 3rd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do on his resume’.

Before the mass, I read some of the pamphlets that were available and were apparently left by the Franciscan. They seemed to go out of their way to incorporate evolution and the Big Bang into theology.

Perhaps these incidents are the effect of the liberal folk in the church. One needs to remember that not every individual priest has all the answers or is right all the time.

Thal59