The Redemptive Nature of Suffering?

[TimothyH]

I never hear about the redemptive nature of suffering. To be truthful, it is a doctrine which I really don’t understand all too well, other than the requisite quote from Colossians 1:24.

People complain about bad things in their lives and all sorts of tribulations and sufferings, but not once on these forums nor in any homily nor in anything I can remember reading, (other than perhapse a Karl Keating or FJ Sheed book which I can’t remember) do I recall ever having anyone mentioned the redemtive value to the Body of Christ of suffering by its individual members. It’s really something which sets Catholics apart from the rest of Christianity and it is my contention that we have gotten away from it, and to a certain extent, it has made us, dare I say, “Cowardly” in the face of bad things happening in our lives. That really isn’t the right word but certainly less tolerant of suffering, or at least less understanding of why bad things happen.

Am I off base on my perception of our abandonment of the doctrine?

So, does anyone have any light to shed on the docrine? I am reasonably well versed in scripture and am really looking for an explanation of the docrine theologically, from a Biblical perspective, something more than just quoting chapter and verse, as a way to jumpstart my own study of the topic. I’ll really take any (name removed by moderator)ut but the theological and biblical basis for the doctrine is what interests me most.

Thoughts?

-Tim-

 

[Salvatore123]

Timothy,

I believe that Catholic schools today do a HORRIBLE job on educating our children the basics. I should know - I have four kids in Catholic school, chaired two school boards and sat on a diocesan school board.

I actually asked a religion teacher how do they teach the difference between the Catholic doctrine of salvation and the Protestant - his answer astonished me. He said, “we are really not that far apart. We just call things differently than they do.”

That’s it - that was his answer.

I don’t know you, so I have no idea what your knowledge or understanding is about this fundamental Catholic doctrine (and I should say Orthodox as well).

Catholics “break down” getting into heaven into two things that must occur:

1. Redemption
2. Salvation

Redemption

As God was infinite love, Adam’s and Eve’s injury to him was also infinite. Their ACT was not infinite - it cannot be, as they were human. But to hurt an infinite being is to cause an infinite amount of harm.

So how does one seal the breach between man and God? God did it (which he did NOT HAVE TO DO) by becoming man. But as he was man and God, then all acts done by him as a man were infinitely good. But to also show us his depth of love for us, God, as man incarnate, suffered immensely for us in the physical sense of his being a man who was wipped, mocked, spat upon, and finally crucified.

The Passion that Christ endured served as payment (that is, redemption) to God to heal that breach. Of course, God accepted that act of his Son as completed and satisfied 9remember - Jesus said “it is finished”, and God said, he was “well pleased” with his son.

Thus, Jesus did something that no man could do - redeem mankind in the eyes of God. That was an objective, supernatural act that benefitted EVERY LIVING HUMAN, WHETHER CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT, ORTHODOX - EVEN ATHEIST.

Salvation

Now, we get to the “saving” part. Protestants seem to “combine” Christ’s act of redemption (crucifixion) with a SUBJECT “thing” that must occur: salvation. And for salvation, MAN IS NEEDED. Man benefitted from the objective act of redemption, whether he wanted it or not, but man does NOT benefit from salvation, whether he wanted it or not, because MAN MUST PARTICIPATE IN HIS OWN SALVATION.

Remember, the bible states that man “should work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. Now, does that sound like “once saved/always saved”? Does that sound like the hard-core fundamentalists who say “I KNOW I am going to heaven”. My response is, "really? That’s funny, because Christ said only God can look into the window of a man’s soul, and thus only God can know who will be saved (he already knows because of his ominiscience - but that is an entirely different topic).

It is MAN who must work on his salvation, in cooperation with God, by living as Christ taught, believing as Christ taught, and being contrite when one has sinned. Now, if we did everything we are supposed to do, we can have a pretty good idea if we are bound for purgatory or hell (and if purgatory, then it is automatically heaven in the end) at any moment in our lives (or we SHOULD know the state of our soul - if we don’t, we have some serious problems).

So when distinguishes between redemption and salvation, we ARE like fundamentalist protestants when we and they say that “only God could have done what he accomplished on the cross”. That is very true. But we don’t call that act alone “salvation”. We call it redemption.

Thus, a quick guide to Catholic teaching on redemption/salvation.

I hope the above part made sense.

As far as WHY “suffering” or “sacrifice” is deemed “necessary” by God for its redemptive qualities, I think it boils down to love. I think one of Christ’s most beautiful teachings was John 15:13: “Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”

I don’t know why God always placed a “premium” on animal sacrifice (we see examples of Abel’s lamb, Abraham’s ram, Death passing over the doors of the Israelites who had blood of lambs painted on them, the temple during Christ’s time of preaching when Jews offered “spotless” lambs, and finally Christ himself offering his own body). God deemed it important and I never really questioned why. Perhaps I should have regarding the “animal” part.

But getting back to the part of the redemptive nature of suffering itself (and finally, death), how often do we hear of people who are dying of cancer and they “offer up their suffering” for the sake of others. I heard Mother Theresa speak repeatedly of the redeeming quality of suffering. I suppose it is all tied together with what she would have called “virtues” of “love”, “sacrifice”, “pain”, “humility” - all things that it seems the most holy of men go through. It seems as though pain brings out a nature in man that, for the most part, is usually hidden in all but the very good and holiest of us.

I confess that death and pain frighten me. I have a history of kidney stones, so I know what real pain can be like (albeit for relatively short periods of time), and I pray I do not die a painful death. Yet, I look at JPII and saw the immense suffering he endured during the final years of his life and my understanding is that he refused, for the most part, palliative, life-saving measures until his very death. It was as though he welcomed what God had given him.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable in this area can add or do a better job of saying what I just tried to say . . .

 

[cyejbv]

Timothy,

I believe that Catholic schools today do a HORRIBLE job on educating our children the basics. I should know - I have four kids in Catholic school, chaired two school boards and sat on a diocesan school board.

I actually asked a religion teacher how do they teach the difference between the Catholic doctrine of salvation and the Protestant - his answer astonished me. He said, “we are really not that far apart. We just call things differently than they do.”

That’s it - that was his answer.

S, I don’t have a ‘better or more thorough’ answer, but I must comment that you are sadly correct. But that’s another thread However, therein lies part of the problem for you Tim: Catholics not knowing their faith.

I encourage you to read about this as it’s a very important part of our Faith. Start with Bl John Paul II’s “On the Meaning of Human Suffering”, the Latin being Salvifici Doloris. This isn’t the easiest read, but it is very good- link below.

Finally, my ‘personal’ experience might help you; I hope it does!

I teach CCD. Young kids, and one of the ways we teach this is: (I am working hard here to not address you as if you were 8! Habits die hard) Also, I’m leaving out the explanations for terms I assume you know, e.g. Mystical Body etc.

We as Catholics are part of the Mystical Body of Christ. Now think of a physical body – if I cut my toe, it doesn’t hurt my finger. But if my toe gets infected, I could get sick and if not treated, I might die. Dying affects my finger because it’s part of my body,even though the finger itself is unhurt. But lets go back to the toe.

My body knows to go to work for my toe, the blood cells get to work to start healing the toe, the antibodies God put inside me get busy fighting infection: in a way, they offer themselves for the good of the body.
Think that the suffering of the toe- getting stitches, maybe shots from the doctor, or just the scratchy feeling of a scab- that suffering keeps the finger safe too….

When we ‘offer it up’ to Christ, we know our sufferings can be for the good of His Mystical Body.

I illustrate it a little by saying ok Joey you’re the toe Susie you’re the finger, Maria you’re the helper redblood cell. I won’t kill you with the play acting but its effective in teaching the basic concept: what I do affects you… what happens to me can impact what happens to you.

So now that you have the extreme condensed kid version here are a few links to help you; note: the second one I can’t enthusiastically endorse because I just don’t know enough, but it DID help me to understand a bit better!

Pax!

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2SALVI.HTM

chnetwork.org/forum/prayer-the-spiritual-life-and-devotions/one-more-time-what-is-redemptive-suffering/

 

[Queen_Kimi]

i know how you feel , i don’t hear much about it at my parish either . but i do hear about it .
i listen to several shows on relevant radio relevantradio.com/Page.aspx?pid=469 . you can listen live and to archived shows on line . ( my favorite is go Ask Your Father )
also this catholic answers site has catholic radio to listen to in the faith section of the site .
and lighthouse catholic media lighthousecatholicmedia.org/cdclub/ has some great CD’s on suffering that will help you to understand it so much better

15 Things to Do in the Midst of Suffering Jeff Cavins
Battle for the Faith in Mexico. Viva Cristo Rey! Patrick Madrid
Former Satanist Returns to the Sacraments Betty Brennan
Making Sense Out of Suffering Dr. Scott Hahn Add CD
When Life Doesn’t Make Sense Fr. Benedict Groeschel

as well as many other topics

 

[Crumpy]

I don’t know about the academic or scriptural basis of the redemptive nature of suffering. It’s there, someplace.

What I think I can add is my own impression that God suffers. Certainly, in Jesus Christ we see the act of salvation as involving a lot of suffering.

Even then, why is Jesus suffering? Why does he have to suffer in his body for sin?

In the act of contrition, we pray “but most of all because [my sins] have offended thee.”

This offense, I think, involves suffering, as the best anthropomorphism that we can use to describe the effect of sin on God.

If we are supposed to suffer redemptively and if we CAN suffer redemptively, I think it has to be that we become God-like in that suffering.

I hope the person who really answers this will explain how we become close to God.

Isn’t one of the beatitudes, blessed are they who suffer for righteousness sake, etc.? How do we suffer for righteousness sake, by the way?

 

[TimothyH]

Thank you all for your replies, especially the link to Salvifici Doloris which is turning out to be a good read.

-Tim-

 

[perro_sarnoso]

I never hear about the redemptive nature of suffering. To be truthful, it is a doctrine which I really don’t understand all too well, other than the requisite quote from Colossians 1:24.

People complain about bad things in their lives and all sorts of tribulations and sufferings, but not once on these forums nor in any homily nor in anything I can remember reading, (other than perhapse a Karl Keating or FJ Sheed book which I can’t remember) do I recall ever having anyone mentioned the redemtive value to the Body of Christ of suffering by its individual members. It’s really something which sets Catholics apart from the rest of Christianity and it is my contention that we have gotten away from it, and to a certain extent, it has made us, dare I say, “Cowardly” in the face of bad things happening in our lives. That really isn’t the right word but certainly less tolerant of suffering, or at least less understanding of why bad things happen.

Am I off base on my perception of our abandonment of the doctrine?

So, does anyone have any light to shed on the docrine? I am reasonably well versed in scripture and am really looking for an explanation of the docrine theologically, from a Biblical perspective, something more than just quoting chapter and verse, as a way to jumpstart my own study of the topic. I’ll really take any (name removed by moderator)ut but the theological and biblical basis for the doctrine is what interests me most.

Thoughts?

-Tim-

Sorry, I only have my mangy dog perspective.

Think of Pope John Paul II and his suffering and death. Why did he give us that example? Why didn’t he utter a Papal command and say “get me to the hospital quick!!!”.

Think of all the Godly holy people who have suffered and died - fully aware of their moment of death and not sedated into oblivion…

Why should I suffer aimlessly? Shouldn’t my suffering be worth something? To someone?

Maybe I need to understand it from my perspective. Maybe I need to understand that suffering in regret and anger and desperation and hopelessness is empty suffering; that benefits no one. Not me not my family not anyone.

Maybe - if I understand suffering from JP II 's perspective and other holy people who have died a holy death while suffering…maybe my suffering will be worth something.

One has to have a life of prayer and a life of the spirit, nurtured by the Sacraments to eventually understand these things.

Choosing to view suffering from a secular, societal, instant coffee, microwave, Ipad 2 mentality is senseless.

I can choose to die (when my time comes) a sedated, percoceted, morphined death or I can prepare my life for that moment and recieve that moment in full awareness of my death.

Maybe someone will benefit…I hope someone will benefit…I can only ask the Lord to direct my suffering towards whom is most in need…like a prayer.