The "rest" of the Lord's Prayer?

[lissabears]

I had a discussion after mass with a friend (who is not a Catholic) a few weeks ago and he asked why we do not say the entire Lord’s Prayer. I explained what it wasn’t in the Bible and was not accepted by the early church but he was most assured that it was in the Bible. My Bible (NAB) does not contain the “For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever”, however when I looked into the King James version, it’s right there and even in red! This seems like such a huge difference in translations! Jesus either said it or he did not! I am rather confused! I posted this in Ask an Apologist, but wanted to see what others had to say! Thanks!

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

lissabears:

I had a discussion after mass with a friend (who is not a Catholic) a few weeks ago and he asked why we do not say the entire Lord’s Prayer. I explained what it wasn’t in the Bible and was not accepted by the early church but he was most assured that it was in the Bible. My Bible (NAB) does not contain the “For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever”, however when I looked into the King James version, it’s right there and even in red! This seems like such a huge difference in translations! Jesus either said it or he did not! I am rather confused! I posted this in Ask an Apologist, but wanted to see what others had to say! Thanks!

We repeat this expression every time at Mass. We pray the Lord’s Prayer, then the priest says, “Deliver us Lord from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. Keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ.”

 

[John_Henry]

lissabears:

I had a discussion after mass with a friend (who is not a Catholic) a few weeks ago and he asked why we do not say the entire Lord’s Prayer. I explained what it wasn’t in the Bible and was not accepted by the early church but he was most assured that it was in the Bible. My Bible (NAB) does not contain the “For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever”, however when I looked into the King James version, it’s right there and even in red! This seems like such a huge difference in translations! Jesus either said it or he did not! I am rather confused! I posted this in Ask an Apologist, but wanted to see what others had to say! Thanks!

Subject to correction, it is my understanding that the phrase in question is not in many of the earliest gospel manuscripts. The hypothesis that I heard was that it was part of the early liturgy, and was added to the margin of the gospel text by an early writer. The phrase was then mistakenly copied into the actual text by a later copyist.

I told this to my Protestant friend (who believes it actually was Jesus’ words) and he accused me and the Catholic Church of siding with the Jesus Seminar. But it’s just a case of the Church preserving the original text.

 

[mtr01]

It really appears that this is a later addition to the Our Father, most likely as a doxology intended to adapt the prayer for liturgical use (exactly how the Catholic Church uses it). The New Catholic Dictionary states as much:

An addition to the original text of the prayer of Our Lord, the Our Father, inserted in the East and adopted in the form used by Protestants.

This makes sense to me, as the doxology can been seen in early liturgical use even in the Didache. For example:

9:4 As this broken bread was once scattered on the mountains, and after it had been brought together became one, so may thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth unto thy kingdom; for thine is the glory, and the power, through Jesus Christ, for ever.[emphasis mine]

Just to check up, I went to a Protestant bible site, and the commentary they have there also suggests that this was a later addition (sometimes ascribed to St. John Chrysostom). One of the highlights:

Christian liturgical usage knows a doxology following SM/Matt 6:13: “For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory into the ages. Amen”… This doxology, however, was not part of the “original” Lord’s Prayer; it was not part of the Matthean SM [Sermon on the Mount] either. The reasons for excluding it are text-critical: the best and oldest manuscripts do not have it, and the earliest commentaries on the Lord’s Prayer do not know of it.580 Also, the parallel in Luke 11:4 does not have it.581 In addition, those manuscripts that do contain a doxology have it in a variety of forms.

580 Tertullian [160-225 A.D.], Origen [185-254 A.D.], and Cyprian [martyred 258 A.D.] do not know of it.

581 Interestingly, variant readings do not exist that would insert it into Luke 11:4.

bibletexts.com/versecom/mat06v09.htm

Based on this information, I guess you could tell your friend that you are indeed saying the prayer correctly, and that the doxology is a later addition to his King James Bible, that was not part of the original manuscripts. I guess if you wanted to turn the tables, you could ask why his Bible adds words to what our Lord actually said.

 

[Strider]

The phrase appears in the Didache under “Prayer after Communion.”

newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

Perhaps it was lifted from there and appended to the Our Father somehow. Maybe it was written in the margin as per John Henry’s post

 

[Salmon]

John Henry:

I told this to my Protestant friend (who believes it actually was Jesus’ words) and he accused me and the Catholic Church of siding with the Jesus Seminar.

While the doxology was added to the gospel of Matthew, not even the King James Version adds it to the gospel of Luke.

KJV : Luke 11

1And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.

2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

3Give us day by day our daily bread.

4And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

5And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, …

Ask your friend which gospel writer was faithful to the actual quotation (if that is his mindset).

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[SOGFPP]

Hello all… (Hiya SALMON!!! )

Maybe this might help explain it:

The Byzantine Rite has no Embolism of the Lord’s Prayer, but only the final clause: “For Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory, of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, now and for ever and for ages of ages. R. Amen” (ibid., 392 and 410). That it once had this prayer, like the parent Rite of Antioch, seems certain from the fact that there is an Embolism in the Nestorian and Armenian Liturgies, both derived at an early date from Constantinople.

newadvent.org/cathen/09214b.htm

Peace in Christ,
Scott

 

[Ann78]

At every mass I’ve been to, we say the Lord’s Prayer, then the priest says, "Deliver us Lord from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. Keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ."Then the congregation immediately follows with, “For the kingdom and the power and the glory are Yours, now and forever, amen.” To me it seems like we DO say it, just not immediately following the Our Father.