The role of the earthly church

[edwinG]

If the Holy Spirit lives in you, does He guide your life actively or passively. How aware are you of Him each day? Do the earthly churches always agree 100% with His teaching. If so, why is He here. What role does He play in our life and what role does the earthly church play and are these roles duplicated or does each have its own work.
Christ be with you,
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[Apologia100]

edwinG:

If the Holy Spirit lives in you, does He guide your life actively or passively. How aware are you of Him each day? Do the earthly churches always agree 100% with His teaching. If so, why is He here. What role does He play in our life and what role does the earthly church play and are these roles duplicated or does each have its own work.
Christ be with you,
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

The Church is the Pillar of Faith that guides us through our earthly pilgrimage to the promised land, much as the Pillar Fire lead the way for the Israelites through the desert. FOr a much more thorough explanation, go to catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp.

 

[Pug]

I think the HS is free to guide us actively or passively, as he likes. No, I am not aware of him every day. Some days I forget to ask for his aid. No, it seems clear that the various churches on earth have divergent teachings, and that would not be if they agreed 100% with the HS. Just one answer (I could think of more) for why the Holy Spirit is here: to empower the Church and its people to be witnesses to Christ and the truth. The time I most often pray to the HS is when I will have to speak publicly or when the outcome of my actions will affect many. Then I ask that he guide my words and actions. It is a load off my mind to know that the final outcome of my words and actions lies with God and not me.

I’m not sure I fully understand the sense of your last question. It seems like you are asking if the HS and the Church have the same role in my life. I believe that the HS acts through other Church members, so it would be strange for me to say the Church is doing things apart from the HS. But the Church and the HS are not identical with eachother, clearly. Again, I don’t think I understand the question.

 

[Chris_W]

If I understand the premise of the question, I would guess you are essentially asking, “If the Church is our infallible guide, then why did God give us His Holy Spirit individually?” (especially since Catholics often point out, when debating Sola Sctiptura, that reliance on the Holy Spirit for the indiviual to arrive at objective truth, is not a viable means to that end).

If that is an adequate description of your intent, I answer as follows:

1. We cannot, of ourselves, lead a person to God. If you’ve ever debated with atheists, you may have experienced this. Therefore, we depend on the Holy Spirit to lead people to truth (albeit not alone, but leading a person to the Church as well, being an essential part of that process).
2. Individuals depend on the Holy Spirit to guide us in our daily actions, thoughts, decisions, etc.
3. We rely on the Hoy Spirit to lead us into a deeper relationship with God, forming our minds to understand God’s plan for us, and furthering our union with the will of God.

The Church, also dependent on the Holy Spirit, cannot be everywhere always to lead the flock. The Holy Spirit can. So while the Holy Spirit leads the Church in many of the same ways as the Holy Spirit leads individuals, both need that guidance. But that is not to say the Holy Spirit does the same thing for everyone. The Church is protected from error out of necessity. It is not necessary that individuals be protected from error, as we have the Jesus’ gift of the Church to answer disputes and clarify the Word of God.

Hope that helps.

Peace,
Chris W

 

[duck]

yes the Holy Spirit leads and guides us. the problem is we can’t always discern where our will leaves off and His begans. that’s why we have the church to keep us from getting off track and lead us on in the Holy Spirit.

 

[edwinG]

Apologia100:

The Church is the Pillar of Faith that guides us through our earthly pilgrimage to the promised land, much as the Pillar Fire lead the way for the Israelites through the desert. FOr a much more thorough explanation, go to catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp.

Thank you Apologia,
Now can you answer the part of the question regarding the role of the Holy Spirit. What is His role in your life? What does He personally do for you?
I did not phrase my thread very well.
Thank you in anticipation
Christ be with you,http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Pug:

I think the HS is free to guide us actively or passively, as he likes. No, I am not aware of him every day. Some days I forget to ask for his aid. No, it seems clear that the various churches on earth have divergent teachings, and that would not be if they agreed 100% with the HS. Just one answer (I could think of more) for why the Holy Spirit is here: to empower the Church and its people to be witnesses to Christ and the truth. The time I most often pray to the HS is when I will have to speak publicly or when the outcome of my actions will affect many. Then I ask that he guide my words and actions. It is a load off my mind to know that the final outcome of my words and actions lies with God and not me.

I’m not sure I fully understand the sense of your last question. It seems like you are asking if the HS and the Church have the same role in my life. I believe that the HS acts through other Church members, so it would be strange for me to say the Church is doing things apart from the HS. But the Church and the HS are not identical with eachother, clearly. Again, I don’t think I understand the question.

Hi Pug,
Thanks for participating,
I do not know how to cut and paste. please forgive me my clumsly format.
In the initial part of your response, you say He is free to guide us actively or passively “as He likes”.
I think it is " as you like" You are free to choose how much you want to involve Him in your life. You have free will. I ask daily that He leads me in all things. I am learning to follow Him, and by doing this my love is growing , by this I mean a real love, not just the word on the page. Joy is in my heart, songs of worship bubble out of my mouth when I roll over at night or as I am walking down the street. I beg you to allow Him to be your constant companion, fully realizing that it is not Wham Bam but an emergent process, peaceful and with grace. Remember He is with us instead of Christ as Christ had to go away. After He went He sent the Holy Spirit, so we wouldn’t be lonely or without the comfort of His ( Christ’s) presence. He ( the Holy Spirit ) will only lead us to Christ, they are one. The only difference between us today and the original apostles is they could see and touch Christ but they the apostles did not have the knowlegde we have today, but we can’t see or touch, Christ who to us is the Holy Spirit.
You say the Holy Spirit is here to empower the Church. I say, the Church is Christ Jesus and He is already empowered. The Holy Spirit is here for the people, the pope the bishops the clergy the members of the congregration and equally. No one does signs ( to my knowledge) as the apostles did, we are all equal in so far as our ability to communicate with and follow His leading. The joy that Scripture talks about is in Him the Holy Spirit. Without His active participation in our lives our love and joy is on paper.
The last question about their roles in our life. What role should the church play and what role should the Holy Spirit play. When do you go to the church for an answer and when do you go to the Holy Spirit. Why would you go to the church and why would you go to the Holy Spirit.
once again, thank you
Christ be with you
walk in gracehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Chris W:

If I understand the premise of the question, I would guess you are essentially asking, “If the Church is our infallible guide, then why did God give us His Holy Spirit individually?” (especially since Catholics often point out, when debating Sola Sctiptura, that reliance on the Holy Spirit for the indiviual to arrive at objective truth, is not a viable means to that end).

If that is an adequate description of your intent, I answer as follows:

1. We cannot, of ourselves, lead a person to God. If you’ve ever debated with atheists, you may have experienced this. Therefore, we depend on the Holy Spirit to lead people to truth (albeit not alone, but leading a person to the Church as well, being an essential part of that process).
2. Individuals depend on the Holy Spirit to guide us in our daily actions, thoughts, decisions, etc.
3. We rely on the Hoy Spirit to lead us into a deeper relationship with God, forming our minds to understand God’s plan for us, and furthering our union with the will of God.

The Church, also dependent on the Holy Spirit, cannot be everywhere always to lead the flock. The Holy Spirit can. So while the Holy Spirit leads the Church in many of the same ways as the Holy Spirit leads individuals, both need that guidance. But that is not to say the Holy Spirit does the same thing for everyone. The Church is protected from error out of necessity. It is not necessary that individuals be protected from error, as we have the Jesus’ gift of the Church to answer disputes and clarify the Word of God.

Hope that helps.

Peace,
Chris W

Chris, you could have written my question for me.Thanks
I agree and thank you for your answers.
When you say the Holy Spirit leads the church , I gather you mean the catholic church. To me, Christ is the church and on earth the church is led by men, popes, bishops etc and like Peter showed on many occasions, he also is very prone to mistake.
Only the Holy Spirit is all truth.
On one post a person said that the catholic church was the only church for the first 1600 years and of course is stilll a vibrant church.
I ask then if Isaiah 28:7-12 applies as much to the catholic church as it does to all churches.
Isaiah 28:7-12
But they also have erred through wine,
and through intoxicating drink are out of the way,
The priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink,
They are swallowed up by wine,
They are out of the way through intoxicating drink
They err in vision they stumble in judgment
For all tables are full of vomit and filth
No place is clean.

Whom will He teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?

Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
For precept must be upon precept ,
precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line
here a little, there a little

For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people
To whom He said, " This is the rest with which
you may cause the weary to rest"
and " This is the refreshing"

yet they would not hear.

Now I believe that God is telling us that the Holy Spirit is the only one to be trusted with His message, His Truth, and the rest is in Jesus.
So you see the role of the church on earth to answer the disputes and to clrify the word. This is the meat of my question. Where we see the roles of 1) the earthly church and 2) the Holy Spirit
Thank you again
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

duck:

yes the Holy Spirit leads and guides us. the problem is we can’t always discern where our will leaves off and His begans. that’s why we have the church to keep us from getting off track and lead us on in the Holy Spirit.

Hi Duck ,
Thanks for responding.
I agree with you except I would ask you if you think that the Holy Spirit is not capable of putting us back on track, if we so desire. This is a very important truth in here. If we use the church, and there is nothing wrong per se in that , we are taking advantage of peer pressure to help us to conform, and I think this is the creation of many hypocrits. Because in our hearts we dont really want to give up that “something’ that the Holy Spirit is telling us to. Now I am by no means passing judgment on hypocrits 1 Samuel 15:24 " Then Saul said to Samuel, " I have sinned, for I have transgresed the commandment of the Lord and your words, because I feared the people and obeyed their voice” ie Saul did not obey the voice of the Spirit ( spoken through Samuel) but of the people. Only Christ has obeyed the Spirit to perfection.

Galatians2:11 Now ( this is Paul speaking) when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed.
2:13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrit with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.
Now at this time, Peter was a very experienced apostle as this took place on Pauls second visit after an absence of 14 years. Peter did signs and miracles was loved by Christ and still was prone to errors of consequence. Only the Spirit is without error.
So we who are nothing, compared to an anointed King and an anointed apostle will make mistakes but we can also be convicted by the Holy Spirit and then recognise our error and repent and go forward. We can even wilfully disobey and as long as it remains psychologically possibly for us to repent then we are acceptable.
Once we disobey to the nth time that our hearts in sincerity cannot repent we are lost. It comes down to trust,. trust in Christ, in God and in the Holy Spirit, not in man. Our churches on earth have a very important role. But I think the truth is with the Holy Spirit. Christ commanded us to love one another to sow seeds
etc. This etc is a list I would like.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG

 

[mayra_hart]

at the moment i am doing a bible study from scott hahn so i ask god for his guidance. but also i depend on the catholic church to guide me too. when christ establish his church, the new israel, he set up a living, continuing authority to teach, govern, and sanctify in his name. god make me an instrument of your peace… god bless you all

 

[edwinG]

mayra hart:

at the moment i am doing a bible study from scott hahn so i ask god for his guidance. but also i depend on the catholic church to guide me too. when christ establish his church, the new israel, he set up a living, continuing authority to teach, govern, and sanctify in his name. god make me an instrument of your peace… god bless you all

Thank you Mayra,
God bless you
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[Chris_W]

edwinG:

When you say the Holy Spirit leads the church , I gather you mean the catholic church. To me, Christ is the church and on earth the church is led by men, popes, bishops etc and like Peter showed on many occasions, he also is very prone to mistake.
Only the Holy Spirit is all truth.
On one post a person said that the catholic church was the only church for the first 1600 years and of course is stilll a vibrant church.
I ask then if Isaiah 28:7-12 applies as much to the catholic church as it does to all churches.
Isaiah 28:7-12
But they also have erred through wine…They err in vision they stumble in judgment…

Okay, there are a couple of possibilities here, as I see it, though I do not claim to be a Bible scholar.

1. If a person was to argue that this pertains to the Catholic Church, and if one would infer this is indicating that the Catholic Church has fallen, so to speak, then this would contradict the New Testament, in Matt 16, where Jesus said He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

Therefore, I look for another possibility:

1. Either this pertains to the OT leaders, (i.e. like the leaders who persecuted Christ), or this pertains to individual men of churches of all ages. Both of these possibilities would be possible to reconcile with Jesus’ promise.

You see, we do not believe that the Pope, or the Magesterium of the Catholic Church are impeccable. That is to say, we recognize the reality that we are all sinners and are therefore capable of error (as described in Isaiah). We jsut believe that the Church is prtected from error in her official teachings…not in the leaders’ personal lives.

edwinG:

Now I believe that God is telling us that the Holy Spirit is the only one to be trusted with His message, His Truth, and the rest is in Jesus.
So you see the role of the church on earth to answer the disputes and to clrify the word. This is the meat of my question. Where we see the roles of 1) the earthly church and 2) the Holy Spirit

First let me say that the Holy Spirit cannot lead one person to one truth and another to another truth. To say therefore that we should each rely individually on the guidance of the Spirit simply does not work, hence the division among christians who subscribe to this notion. Yet Jesus said He’d protect His church from error. How might this be accomplished? By protecting the Church from error.

So the answer to your last question is this. The role of the Holy Spirit interacting with individuals is the same in many ways as how the Holy Spirit interacts with the Catholic Church, except that the message, the truths taught, by the Church are guaranteed to be free from error. This is a protection not provided to individuals. Just as the Holy Spirit protected the authors of the books of the Bible from making any errors (at least during their writing)…a claim that we also cannot make for ourselves.

Peace,
Chris

 

[Pug]

Edwin,
Thank you for your reply.

In the initial part of your response, you say He is free to guide us actively or passively “as He likes”. I think it is " as you like" You are free to choose how much you want to involve Him in your life.

Yes, I agree we can ask for his help in everything. I don’t think his response to our request is always obvious. His way of answering may not be what we had in mind and it may be subtle, so I thought passive was a good way to describe that, that is, from our perspective it would seem passive. His answer could be in the form of a new opportunity or in the form of a direct healing. One seems passive to me, and one active. But they are both his direct help, so active is overall a better word.

I beg you to allow Him to be your constant companion, fully realizing that it is not Wham Bam but an emergent process, peaceful and with grace.

I do ask for him to be in my heart always (actually I ask that I never do anything to grieve him). I agree, the HS is always peaceful in his actions in our heart.

Remember He is with us instead of Christ as Christ had to go away. After He went He sent the Holy Spirit, so we wouldn’t be lonely

Yes, I know the scripture to which you refer. I agree that Christ talks of it being our advantage that he goes away so the he will send the Paraclete. But I don’t really think of the HS as being “instead of Christ” when thinking of the HS in my heart. I think the Father, Son, and HS have an abode with me John 14:20,23.

the apostles did not have the knowlegde we have today

What kind of knowledge is that?

You say the Holy Spirit is here to empower the Church. I say, the Church is Christ Jesus and He is already empowered.

I was thinking of the scripture when I said “to empower the Church and its people to be witnesses to Christ”. Luke 24:29 has the words, “clothed with power from on high” and in Acts 1:8 Jesus uses the words, “but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses”. That sounds like the HS gives help or power to be witnesses. I apply those words to myself sometimes in that when I talk about Christ to others, it is the HS that gives me the right words to use if necessary and it is the HS that touches the heart of the person I am talking to, not me. Also, the HS has acted powerfully in my life so far, and when I talk to people, I might mention these acts and it is really the HS and his acts that are the witness to Christ, so to speak.

I perceive that Christ is the head of his body which is the Church. I don’t really see Christ as identical with the Church. It sounds sort of like you see them as identical when you say “the Church is Christ Jesus”.

No one does signs ( to my knowledge) as the apostles did, we are all equal in so far as our ability to communicate with and follow His leading.

Actually, I think some people are walking more in step with the HS than others, but that has nothing to do with priests or laity. One can see it in the fruits they have.
However, I think the Holy Spirit is interested in the truth and not having it get lost or messed up. What the apostles saw and passed on is still available for us to know (the important stuff anyway) and I think of the HS as having watched over that truth about Jesus. I mean, the apostles could have all died and been forgotten, but that didn’t happen because God has watched over the message. Continued in next post, ran out of room, sorry…

 

[Pug]

When do you go to the church for an answer and when do you go to the Holy Spirit.

If I want to know more about Jesus or God or his plans, I go to either Scripture or Tradition (I see the Church as having carried these through history by the help of the HS, so they are reliable, that’s why I go there). I read about it or hear about it from a good source, but then I have to process that message. Unless I do that with the HS, I am in trouble. How will I truly understand or perceive about God unless he helps and I listen (to him)? Also, I do think there is still an active teaching function in the Church, guarded by the HS. So I will listen to that to help guide me away from making decisions that are only my own.

I guess it is like this. If I read about how Jesus humbled himself and died on a cross, I need to pray about that to understand it. I would say, Holy Spirit, help me absorb what that kind of humility is!

If I want to know if Holy Eucharist is a sacrament, I would look to the Church to answer that, and then I would pray to the HS to understand the significance of it.