The "royal 'we'" and the Trinity

[Holly3278]

Hey everyone. I am speaking with some Muslims on a message board. I am trying to evangelize them. Well, there are some verses in the Bible, starting in Genesis where God speaks of Himself as “we” or “us”. Here is an example:

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”
(Genesis 1:26 RSV)

Well, I have always assumed that the Bible says “Let us…” because God is speaking of all three persons of the Trinity here. Could I be wrong?

The Muslims on this message board claim that ancient Hebrew had a grammatical form called the “royal we”. They say that when God says “us” or “we” in reference to Himself, it is meant in the singular instead of the plural. Now, of course our God is not plural but couldn’t God be using “we” or “us” as a reference to the three persons of the Trinity?

You see, I want to use these instances of “we” and “us” in the Bible as a way of showing that God was speaking of the three persons of the Trinity when referencing Himself. But I cannot do this if these Muslims are right and “we” and “us” are actually meant to be singular. Do you understand what I am saying? I have tried to make myself clear but I am not sure that I have.

Anyway, any advice you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Elizium23]

Wikipedia says,
Wikipedia:

In Hebrew the form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, which normally indicates a masculine plural, however with Elohim the construction is usually grammatically singular, (i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective) when referring to the Hebrew God, but grammatically plural (i.e. taking a plural verb or adjective) when used of pagan divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7).

See also: Majestic plural

One thing is certain: the Hebrews understood (and understand) God as one, undivided God; the revelation of the Holy Trinity was to Christians alone. The Hebrew scriptures would certainly not contain anything contradictory to the Jewish faith, so I think these people are right in telling you about the plural usage in the text. After all, they would know the language because Hebrew and Arabic are closely related.

If you want to stand your ground, however, here’s a, uhm, contrasting view.

 

[Joe_5859]

For us Christians, passages like that in Genesis 1 certainly point towards the Trinity, but that is not the only interpretation of the passage, nor is it the basis for the dogma of the Trinity.

If I were you, I would avoid using that verse as a prooftext for the Trinity. The interpretation of the “royal we” is a common interpretation. Others interpret it as God talking to the angels. I’ve even heard secularists describe it as a vestige of the polytheistic source texts the Jewish people were drawing from in composing their “creation myth” (that interpretation I have problems with).

Catholic Answers has some great tracts with writings from the Early Church Fathers:

catholic.com/library/god_christ.asp

That probably won’t sway any Muslims, though. If you want to find the scriptural basis for a particular dogma, the best method is to look it up in the Catechism and go through the footnotes. In this case, you’d want to look at CCC 232-267.

 

[ERose]

I have only two points on this that may be helpful to you.

1. If it is a ‘royal we’, why is it used only about four or five times in all of the OT? If this is what these people say it is, this should have been used much more frequently. Especially, in the books that it is used in.
2. I find it very interesting that one of the names used for God, Elohim, is a plural word used as a singular word.

The OT doesn’t explicitly teach the Trinity, but it can be found in the OT, if one knows where to look.

 

[steve_b]

Hey everyone. I am speaking with some Muslims on a message board. I am trying to evangelize them. Well, there are some verses in the Bible, starting in Genesis where God speaks of Himself as “we” or “us”. Here is an example:

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”
(Genesis 1:26 RSV)

Well, I have always assumed that the Bible says “Let us…” because God is speaking of all three persons of the Trinity here. Could I be wrong?

You are correct. God is Father Son and Holy Spirit eternally. He doesn’t change. And it’s wonderful how He gives us this truth from the beginning in Genesis
H:

The Muslims on this message board claim that ancient Hebrew had a grammatical form called the “royal we”. They say that when God says “us” or “we” in reference to Himself, it is meant in the singular instead of the plural. Now, of course our God is not plural but couldn’t God be using “we” or “us” as a reference to the three persons of the Trinity?

You’re correct.
H:

You see, I want to use these instances of “we” and “us” in the Bible as a way of showing that God was speaking of the three persons of the Trinity when referencing Himself. But I cannot do this if these Muslims are right and “we” and “us” are actually meant to be singular. Do you understand what I am saying? I have tried to make myself clear but I am not sure that I have.

Jesus said to the Samaritan, you worship a God you don’t know [Jn 4:22].

He is also saying that to Muslims, JW’s, Mormons, etc

 

[Big_Dummy]

The royal “we” does not exist in Hebrew. We of Jewish background have understood those texts as referring to the attributes of God (Proverbs 8) or that God was speaking to Angels. The royal “we” thing came along in English about 1500 years after NT times. Muslims like Jehovah’s Witnesses simply appeal to the royal “we” ignoring history of its use.

 

[steve_b]

I have only two points on this that may be helpful to you.

1. If it is a ‘royal we’, why is it used only about four or five times in all of the OT? If this is what these people say it is, this should have been used much more frequently. Especially, in the books that it is used in.
2. I find it very interesting that one of the names used for God, Elohim, is a plural word used as a singular word.

The OT doesn’t explicitly teach the Trinity, but it can be found in the OT, if one knows where to look.

Exactly.