The Saxophone and Pope Pius X?

[Guitar]

I’ve actually commented on this in a similar thread once before. There is a genre of classical saxophone that most people aren’t aware of. I have used a saxophone quartet at church. They accompanied hymns, the mass parts and played preludes, fugues, postludes etc… The tone color of a saxophone quartet is (to many people) remarkably similar to a pipe organ. As such, I had quartets play Bach, Gabrielli, Palestrina, Tallis etc… The saxophone quartet, with the exception of the string quartet, is the most uniform sounding common chamber group that exists. It is also extremely well suited for playing with or completely replacing an organ when necessary. I have never used jazz saxophone in church though.

I think that is a large part of the point. There are now classically-trained sax players who play mostly classical music - a lot of it in transcriptions at this stage but the classical quartet is becoming more common. (And they play a lot of Debussy, which seems counter-intuitive but works very well.)

Although there has always been the odd orchestral part for sax (Ravel’s Bolero, for example) its main uses meant it had strong associations that made it improper for church use. Give it another decade or so and the classical sax and classical ensemble may be better known and the instrument not exclusively associated with the “profane”.

We’ve used a tertiary-level performance student classical saxophonist (with little or no interest in non-classical music) in an ensemble with violin, cello, organ + other instruments, so it was blindingly obviously a chamber ensemble, not a jazz group. A well-played sax blends well with strings and harmonises with violin and viola very nicely, and as pointed out, a classical sax ensemble is “objectively” - that is, purely musically - suited to a lot of church music.

The main difficulty is with it being a transposing instrument - when accompanying vocal music in keys that suit the singers, the poor sax player can end up playing in awkward keys a lot of the time. (Another reason why we only attempted this with a proficient player.)

 

[Guitar]

If that’s the type of organist they have, a piano is even less appropriate… the piano requires very much the same skill set. And the piano is more likely to be out of tune.

If you can’t afford a pipe organ or a workable electronic emulation, a quality piano is just as “legit” as a spinet organ which is in no way, no how, any sort of an approximation of a pipe organ. I play piano and organ and have had to battle spinets in my freelance travels. A good piano player will be just as exasperated by one of those things - more so, actually - as a good organist. It’s far easier to play most church music on/adapt it to piano than on/to an octave-of-broom-handles for a pedalboard and two offset manuals that both stop at an F instead of the customary C below.

If you have a decent piano and there is a reasonable pianist in the parish, said pianist might come forward. They near-as-dangnabbit will not if a spinet organ is all that’s on offer. Putting in a spinet is almost always a guarantee that the only player you will get is one who is not competent or confident enough to know (or ask for) better.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

I was told that the organ was first used by the Romans at their entertainments. If true, not an auspicious beginning for a sacred instrument.

This is often quoted by Eastern Rite Catholics and Orthodox as the reason they do not use instrumental music in their liturgies, but the hydraulus of ancient times had very little in common with the organ we know today, which developed in the Middle Ages exclusively within the Church. While the medieval organ and the hydraulus both operated on similar principles, the instrument used by the Greeks and Romans used pipes more akin to a modern steam whistle that was powered by compressed air generated by a water-filled pump. They were mainly used outdoors as war signals.

As for Mozart, his last work, The Magic Flute, was virtually an apologetics and recruitment tool for Freemasonry.

Saxophones. Never cared for 'em. Paul Winter’s soprano sax duets with pipe organ are rather nice, though, but not for Mass.

 

[bpbasilphx]

If that’s the type of organist they have, a piano is even less appropriate… the piano requires very much the same skill set. And the piano is more likely to be out of tune.

As one with degrees in both, I can assure you that the touch and technique of the two instruments are quite different.

 

[Holy_Crucifix]

I found this link, and I’m interested what others think of it. I understand Wikipedia is not authoratative, but all the same, I’ve alwase found it fairly reliable.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_and_Roman_Catholicism

 

[JonathanEdwards]

I’m reading a book on the history of the saxophone and was struck by a tiny passage. One sentence read: “In 1903, Pope Pius X wrote the Motu Proprio on Sacred Music, which prohibited certain instruments “that may give reasonable cause for disgust or scandal” – that is, the saxophone – as being “unworthy of the House of Prayer and of the Majesty of God.”

Is anyone familiar with this *Motu Proprio? *Does anyone know is this true and/or still valid? Is the Saxophone prohibited from being played in church under the guidance of Pope Pius X? Now that I think of it, I’ve never seen or heard a sax in any Catholic liturgical setting.

Thanks for any answers.

Sounds like Pious had a lot of free time on his hands.

 

[Aramis]

If that’s the type of organist they have, a piano is even less appropriate… the piano requires very much the same skill set. And the piano is more likely to be out of tune.

As one with degrees in both, I can assure you that the touch and technique of the two instruments are quite different.

Still, a keyboard is a keyboard… and at the level of painful play originally described, neither instrument should be allowed! Either will sound as poor.

People forget that the sole requisite instrument is the Human Voice. Anything beyond that is to be supportive of the voices.

Also, i’ve heard FAR more out of tune pianos than just about any other instrument.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
Also, i’ve heard FAR more out of tune pianos than just about any other instrument.**

**I’ve commented elsewhere that obtaining fine keyboard instruments (piano or organ) and keeping them in tune and good repair–let alone getting a competent musician–is not high on the priorities of most Catholic parish budgets.

Then people wonder why music is so much better at Protestant churches.**