The Scriptural meaning of Eternal Life

[MaggieOH]

I am submitting this topic because twice now I have heard someone claim that because they accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour they have Eternal Life and nothing can take it away from them.

I have been informed that the reason for this belief is based upon the following verse:

“The one who has the Son has life, the one who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write you, then all these things that you many know that you have eternal life, all you who believe in the Name of God.” (1John 5:12-13)

However, this verse is taken out of its context here and given an interpretation that is not intended by the author of the Scripture. This verse does not mean that all you have to do is accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour and nothing else. One needs to examine the context of the verse within the letter to discover what John was trying to intimate to his audience.

A commentary that I have in front of me states the following:

“In this conclusion, John repeats what he said throughout the letter: you who believe, appreciate what you have. Do not underestimate the step you took in accepting Christ. Explore and look for the riches which are meant for you and which are found in Him who loves us.” (Christian Community Bible, Catholic Pastoral Edition)

So, what can a person conclude with two conflicting opinions? Well, the first thing to do here is to put the verse back in its context and see what else John wrote afterwards:

“If you see your brother committing sin, a sin which does not lead to death, pray for him and God will give life to your brother, I speak of course of the sin that does not lead to death. There is also a sin that leads to death; I do not speak about praying about this. Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin leads to death.” (1John 5:16-17)

Yet more telling is the conclusion that is made in this letter:

“My children, keep yourselves from idols.” (1John 5: 21)

Now let’s go to the beginning of this letter and see what else John states about “Eternal Life”

“This is what has been from the beginning and what we have heard and have seen with our own eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, I mean the WORD who is LIFE…The Life made itself known, we have seen ETERNAL LIFE and we bear witness, and we are telling you of it. It was with the Father and made himself known to us.” (1John 1: 1-2)

So… the author is saying that it is Jesus who is ETERNAL LIFE. How then, can someone take one verse from this letter and then claim that all one has to do is accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour one Has Eternal Life.

How can paying lip service to God, through a sinner’s prayer alone, guarantee that one has what is promised in Heaven right now?

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

(cont)

There is yet another verse in this letter from John that is worthy of consideration:

“If we say we are in fellowship with him, while we walk in darkness, we lie instead of being in truth. But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we are in fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus, the Son of God, purifies us from all sin. If we say “We have no sin” we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all wickedness. If we say that we do not sin, we make God a liar, his word is not in us.” (1John 1:6-10)

If we have Eternal Life as it is proclaimed by various Baptist denominations, how is it that John admonishes us about making false claims concerning the matter of sinfulness?

The words of this verse could not be more clear in that they are a condemnation of those who claim that all they have to do is to accept (through paying lip service to God via the sinners’ prayer) Jesus as Lord and Saviour and one is guaranteed a free trip to Heaven.

Let us focus for the moment upon what John has written:

“If we say we do not sin, we make God a liar, his word is not in us.”

and how does this correlate with the following?:

“The one who has the Son has life.”

How does one know that a person has the Son within and therefore has life?

Something is missing when Christianity is stripped down to this lowest level of understanding…

Maggie

 

[awalt]

I am not completely sure of your question(s), but let me start with a few comments about the scripture you cite and conclusions you draw, and maybe this will help focus us in on these or underlying quesitons that present themselves!

First, in 1John 5:16-17, the comment about “death” is actually written as “mortal sin” in RSV-CE. So while related to eternal life, this verse is really commenting on the difference between mortal and venial sin, not eternal life directly.

John gives an instance in which the believer can have confidence in prayer, but he also cites an example in which confidence is not possible. If anyone sees his brother sinning a venial sin, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. This apparently is a case where a Christian sees a fellow believer engaging in some sinful activity. It is not a sin of a nature as to bring death on the person committing it (mortal sin). In such an instance, the believer can ask for the recovery of the erring person, and God **will give **the petitioner **life **for those who do not sin unto death.

Second, it may be a small thing, but 1John 1: 1-2 doesn’t say Jesus is eternal life, it says Jesus is eternal. Maybe that means the same, I couldn’t tell from your remarks.

Some closing points I believe:

“Walking with Jesus in the light vs. walking in darkness” - walking in darkness means sin. It does not mean have I sinned at least once vs. not. For, we are all sinners. It has been explained to me this means do we walk in a life of sin, sinning regularly, no regard for stopping our sinning, and as you accept more and more the life of sin you do more and more of it. Walking in the light of Jesus means you chose Jesus over the LIFE of sin. You are saved when that happens. However, you will still sin, God will be disappointed in you, you will confess, partake of the sacrament of the Eucharist, grow your faith, and more, all things that strengthen your ability to withstand sinning. It’s very much like a parent-child relationship, they are your child and always will be, but they have disobeyed their parent and that needs to be resolved.

Lastly, the Bible says that you know you are saved and walk with Christ when you see evidence of your faith in the good works that you do. Those works please God and fulfill His plan for you. That faith comes to you from the Holy Spirit and from the grace of God, so it would not be there if you heart was hardened and you were not with God and Jesus Christ.

You made a lot of comments and questions, does this help clarify?

 

[Matt16_18]

awalt:

First, in 1John 5:16-17, the comment about “death” is actually written as “mortal sin” in RSV-CE. So while related to eternal life, this verse is really commenting on the difference between mortal and venial sin, not eternal life directly.

Mortal sin is a sin that kills the eternal life abiding within the soul.
Is there a sin from which there is no recovery? There is certainly no problem with the concept that one should pray for a fellow Christian who sins. With John, Christians recognize that “all wrongdoing is sin” and that all of it separates individuals from God. Thus prayer and restoration counsel (Gal 6:1) appear to be in order when we observe a fellow believer who has sinned. Where John causes a problem, however, is in mentioning “a sin that leads to death” [1John 5:16] for which prayer is not in order (not that it is necessarily wrong, but that it is useless). What type of sin is this? And what type of death is intended–physical or spiritual death? Since we ourselves fall into sin at times, the questions are of practical importance to each of us. This is no mere resolving an academic problem of scripture …

… what type of life and death is John talking about? This is a modern question; it was not one for John’s readers, for the brevity of his reference assumes that they would know what he was talking about. We have to discover this from the rest of the letter. We note, then, that 1 John uses the term life thirteen times, seven of them in this chapter. Since he means spiritual life (eternal life) in every other case in which he uses the term, we would expect that this would also be the meaning here. Likewise the two other places where he uses death (both in 1 John 3:14) refer to spiritual death, not physical death. So even though in the New Testament sin can lead to physical death (1 Cor 11:30 ; compare Acts 5:1-11; 1 Cor 5:5) and physical sickness (James 5:15-16), it is unlikely that that is the meaning here. This is especially true in that in both his Gospel and epistle John sees physical death as something already transcended by the believer (John 8:51; 11:26; 1 John 3:14).

What, then, is the sin (not specific acts of sin, but a quality of sin) that leads to this spiritual death? In the Old Testament some sins carried the death penalty, while others did not (Num 18:22); Deut 22:26). In particular, deliberate or willful breaking of the commandments require death, while inadvertent sin did not (Lev 4:2,13,22,27:5:15,17-18;Num 15:27-31: Deut 17:12). Both of these distinctions were common in first century Jewish literature as well. While all of these Old Testament references are to the physical death of the offender, it would not be surprising for John to reinterpret the concept in terms of spiritual life and death, for that is his focus. In this he had help from Jesus, who referred to a category of sin that would not be forgiven (Mark 3:28 and parallels). What type of sin is this? For Jesus it was observing the activity of the Holy Spirit and calling it the devil’s work. Similarly, John has been concerned with a group of apostates, people who were part of the Christian community and have left.

… These are not casual errors or lapses into this or that sin, but a knowing and deliberate turning away from the truth they experienced in the Christian community. While they would probably still consider themselves Christians, John knows that their standards and their doctrines are quite different from those of his group.

Why, then, doesn’t John say that one should pray for them? The answer is because such prayer is useless. It is not that it is absolutely wrong to pray. While John clearly does not intend Christians to pray for the forgiveness of such people, he words himself carefully so as not to forbid it. The issue is that these people are not repenting or about to repent. Like the people envisioned in Hebrews 6, they have known the truth and experienced the fullness of what God has, but have turned away. While God would surely forgive such people if they did repent, no argument will change their minds. They have left the true Christian community. They “know” they are right and John is wrong. Asking for their forgiveness is useless. Forgiveness comes to the repentant, not those willfully persisting in sin.

from Hard Sayings of the Bible
by Walter C. Kaiser Jr., Peter H. Davids, F. F. Bruce and Manfred T. Brauch

 

[MaggieOH]

awalt:

I am not completely sure of your question(s), but let me start with a few comments about the scripture you cite and conclusions you draw, and maybe this will help focus us in on these or underlying quesitons that present themselves!

The purpose of this thread is to gain insight into why Baptists and other Evangelicals claim that they have Eternal Life and therefore need to do nothing more in relation to their spiritual condition. My contention is that what is happening is a twisting or distortion of Scripture as verses are taken out of context, thus coming up with conclusions that are not in fact supported by the Scripture.

awalt:

First, in 1John 5:16-17, the comment about “death” is actually written as “mortal sin” in RSV-CE. So while related to eternal life, this verse is really commenting on the difference between mortal and venial sin, not eternal life directly.

I am not arguing what is meant by “death” and that it really means mortal sin. I do find that most Evangelicals will not answer what they understand the meaning of “death” to be in the Scripture. My purpose for quoting 1John 5:16-17 is to point out how the verse that a Baptist refers to as stating that he/she has eternal life and therefore is eternally secure is taken out of its context, and when it is placed back into context there is no support for such concepts as OSAS.

awalt:

Second, it may be a small thing, but 1John 1: 1-2 doesn’t say Jesus is eternal life, it says Jesus is eternal. Maybe that means the same, I couldn’t tell from your remarks.

My Claretian Community Christian Bible Catholic Pastoral Edition has this as Eternal Life.

My point will become clear after I have taken the time to do further research on how this is taught in Evangelical circles in order to create a belief in OSAS.

 

[MaggieOH]

Matt16_18:

Mortal sin is a sin that kills the eternal life abiding within the soul. Is there a sin from which there is no recovery? There is certainly no problem with the concept that one should pray for a fellow Christian who sins. With John, Christians recognize that “all wrongdoing is sin” and that all of it separates individuals from God. Thus prayer and restoration counsel (Gal 6:1) appear to be in order when we observe a fellow believer who has sinned. Where John causes a problem, however, is in mentioning “a sin that leads to death” [1John 5:16] for which prayer is not in order (not that it is necessarily wrong, but that it is useless). What type of sin is this? And what type of death is intended–physical or spiritual death? Since we ourselves fall into sin at times, the questions are of practical importance to each of us. This is no mere resolving an academic problem of scripture …

… what type of life and death is John talking about? This is a modern question; it was not one for John’s readers, for the brevity of his reference assumes that they would know what he was talking about. We have to discover this from the rest of the letter. We note, then, that 1 John uses the term life thirteen times, seven of them in this chapter. Since he means spiritual life (eternal life) in every other case in which he uses the term, we would expect that this would also be the meaning here. Likewise the two other places where he uses death (both in 1 John 3:14) refer to spiritual death, not physical death. So even though in the New Testament sin can lead to physical death (1 Cor 11:30 ; compare Acts 5:1-11; 1 Cor 5:5) and physical sickness (James 5:15-16), it is unlikely that that is the meaning here. This is especially true in that in both his Gospel and epistle John sees physical death as something already transcended by the believer (John 8:51; 11:26; 1 John 3:14).

What, then, is the sin (not specific acts of sin, but a quality of sin) that leads to this spiritual death? In the Old Testament some sins carried the death penalty, while others did not (Num 18:22); Deut 22:26). In particular, deliberate or willful breaking of the commandments require death, while inadvertent sin did not (Lev 4:2,13,22,27:5:15,17-18;Num 15:27-31: Deut 17:12). Both of these distinctions were common in first century Jewish literature as well. While all of these Old Testament references are to the physical death of the offender, it would not be surprising for John to reinterpret the concept in terms of spiritual life and death, for that is his focus. In this he had help from Jesus, who referred to a category of sin that would not be forgiven (Mark 3:28 and parallels). What type of sin is this? For Jesus it was observing the activity of the Holy Spirit and calling it the devil’s work. Similarly, John has been concerned with a group of apostates, people who were part of the Christian community and have left.

… These are not casual errors or lapses into this or that sin, but a knowing and deliberate turning away from the truth they experienced in the Christian community. While they would probably still consider themselves Christians, John knows that their standards and their doctrines are quite different from those of his group.

Why, then, doesn’t John say that one should pray for them? The answer is because such prayer is useless. It is not that it is absolutely wrong to pray. While John clearly does not intend Christians to pray for the forgiveness of such people, he words himself carefully so as not to forbid it. The issue is that these people are not repenting or about to repent. Like the people envisioned in Hebrews 6, they have known the truth and experienced the fullness of what God has, but have turned away. While God would surely forgive such people if they did repent, no argument will change their minds. They have left the true Christian community. They “know” they are right and John is wrong. Asking for their forgiveness is useless. Forgiveness comes to the repentant, not those willfully persisting in sin.

from Hard Sayings of the Bible
by Walter C. Kaiser Jr., Peter H. Davids, F. F. Bruce and Manfred T. Brauch

This is getting to the nuts and bolts of the issue

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

I found the following definition of Eternal Life during an Internet search:

Definition:	 	[n]  life without beginning or end

this came from the Internet hyper dictionary.

With this definition in mind, how can anyone claim to have Eternal Life in the Scriptural sense if all that person does is pay lip service to Jesus as Lord and Saviour?

This definition brings to mind “God” who is the Everlasting and Eternal Life because He alone is the Alpha and the Omega, the One who is without beginning or end.

The concept of a Christian possessing Eternal Life is a concept that is quite confusing and is somewhat out of step with the Scripture. For example we have the following motif:

"Then a teacher of the Law came and began putting Jesus to the test. And he said, "Master what shall I do to receive eternal life? Jesus replied, “what is written in the Scripture? How do you understand it?..” (Luke 10:25-37)

When the question of obtaining eternal life is mentioned in the Scripture, it is a question that is phrased in the future tense. The questions asked and answered speak about inheritance. Just as the Scribe asked Jesus about obtaining Eternal Life as a test, the rich young man asked a similar question. In the first instance the response boiled down to the Mercy of God: In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus had asked the scribe: “Which of these three do you think, made himself neighbourly to the man who fell into the hands of brigands?” The response was “The one who had mercy on him” In the second instance, the young man was told to go and sell his possessions, give the profits to the poor, and then he will reach eternal life.

When we talk of Eternal Life we tend to talk about Grace and the efficacy of God’s grace upon our very souls. Rather than talk about Eternal Life as though it is something from the here and now, we who are Catholic tend to emphasise the role of God’s grace in our lives. One cannot reach heaven if grace has been lost because of various unconfessed sins. If we do as Christ commanded, that is we always live in hope of reaching the Kingdom of Heaven.

This is why, how we perceive Eternal Life, and how the Baptist perceives Eternal Life and Grace, is essential to our understanding of leading the Christian life.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Some of the more fringe “Christians” such as JWs, LDS and SDA have a teaching that seems to be contrary to the Scripture. This is the teaching known as soul sleep. Some will actually deny that their particular sect teaches soul sleep but the reality of the teaching is the same.

Whenever you hear someone say something like “you are praying to a dead person” then that is a signal that the person has been accepting distorted teachings about the Scripture.

Those who believe that they have Eternal Life now because they have accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour are no different from the ones who say that there are no saints in heaven because they are all dead.

This brings me back to the question: What is the Scriptural meaning of Eternal Life? What is the Scriptural meaning of “the dead”? When is Scripture speaking of the Spirit or spirit? When is Scripture speaking about the Flesh or flesh?

I am throwing this open to everyone who wants to contribute their own take on the subject.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

I am extending the topic heading because I do believe that many Evangelical Protestants do not understand the Scriptural meaning of both life and death.

The first time that we encounter the word death is in the following:

"Then Yahweh God gave the man this admonition “You may eat indeed of all the trees in the garden. Nevertheless of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you are not to eat for on the day that you eat of it you shall most surely die.” (Gen 2:16-17)

“The woman answered the serpent ’ we may eat the fruit of the trees in the garden. But of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, Yahweh God said, ‘you must not eat it, nor touch it, under pain of death’ Then the serpent sent to the woman , 'NO YOU WILL NOT DIE. God knows in fact that on the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you WILL BE LIKE GODS, knowing good and evil.” (Gen 3: 2-5)

Yet in the two passages that I have presented there are two meanings that are given to death. Did God mean that Adam and Eve would literally die if they ate the fruit? When Satan responded what impression was he giving to Eve about the warning against death?

Please take the time to consider what is being asked here and how it relates to our understanding of Eternal Life.

Maggie

 

[mark_a]

MaggieOH:

The purpose of this thread is to gain insight into why Baptists and other Evangelicals claim that they have Eternal Life and therefore need to do nothing more in relation to their spiritual condition.

The first time I heard this, my initial response (to myself, of course) was “you gotta be kiddin’ me”. And it gets even more strange when they try to explain it.

I kinda sorta get the feeling that a lot of this stuff is rooted in the abuses of the Catholic Church around the time of the reformers.

By the way MaggieOH, I really, really enjoy your thoughts on this board. I learn lots of stuff too. Keep up the good work.

 

[MaggieOH]

mark a:

The first time I heard this, my initial response (to myself, of course) was “you gotta be kiddin’ me”. And it gets even more strange when they try to explain it.

I kinda sorta get the feeling that a lot of this stuff is rooted in the abuses of the Catholic Church around the time of the reformers.

By the way MaggieOH, I really, really enjoy your thoughts on this board. I learn lots of stuff too. Keep up the good work.

Hi MarkA

Thanks for the contribution to this thread. The best I have ever gotten out of an Evangelical on this question is an answer about “Separation from God” (spiritual death), but it is impossible for that Evangelical to address the consequences of sin because he believes that he has eternal life, end of story.

You might be right about the implication of the abuses at the time of the Reformation. I believe that we should not be afraid of addressing the issues that so upset Martin Luther that he went down a slippery slope, yet I did not think that Martin Luther preached that once you have accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour you can sit on your backside and do nothing because you have eternal life and it can never be taken away.

That is why I am attempting to address this issue on this forum. There is a spiritual blindness that is present amongst those who see themselves as the elect (and the rest of us according to them are going to hell).

This leaves me asking again: What do Protestants understand as the Scriptural meaning of “life”, “death” and Eternal Life.

MaggieOH

 

[JackPaul]

I think you have done a splendid examination of this topic and you have answered (to my satisfaction) your own question. I was told by a dear Priest that we are all Guaranteed Eternal Life… It’s where we spend it that is important. As a former protestant, I always strugled with the once saved always saved interpretation of the Bible. That was a big part of why I am a Catholic today.

 

[MaggieOH]

JackPaul:

I think you have done a splendid examination of this topic and you have answered (to my satisfaction) your own question. I was told by a dear Priest that we are all Guaranteed Eternal Life… It’s where we spend it that is important. As a former protestant, I always strugled with the once saved always saved interpretation of the Bible. That was a big part of why I am a Catholic today.

Hi Jack,

when you were a Protestant were you taught that you have eternal life now?

This is what I have heard an Evangelical state on another list. It is my contention that this simply cannot be correct given the understanding that we have of what is Eternal Life, and also what Jesus means by Eternal Life.

Your priest makes a good point about where we will spend eternity, and I suspect that this is a genuine misunderstanding amongst the Protestants.

Maggie