The Self-Deceived

[OnWings]

I have a question. I know that God saves the souls who choose him, who are contrite and repentant and choose to be faithful and who avoid mortal sin. But I’ve read that it’s possible for some to be in a state of self-deception and blindness, and I’m trying to understand what that means. I guess it would be where they only think they are choosing these things or trying to or at least think they want to choose them but actually deep down are choosing hell and resisting the Holy Spirit?

I imagine they would have little if any conscious ability to truly change or even perceive that they are in this state, because of their self-deception and blindness. They might be unable to or have great difficulty recognizing and repenting of their mortal sins, which might be of the less obvious and more hidden kind, such as sins of omission, and sins that are abstract such as pride or lukewarmness or sins against charity, rather than concrete ones like not attending mass. In that way their sins could be hidden from them, because I’d imagine people can more easily deceive themselves about spiritual things that happen inside them than about their external actions. But in order for a sin to be mortal, it would mean they do have enough knowledge of their sin, but they have chosen to hide it from themselves and so from their point of view it might seem as if they didn’t or couldn’t know.

I imagine it might take some kind of special grace for them to come out of that state. But even if they realized it and prayed that for the grace to change, would it even be granted, if they lack genuine faith and desire to change? Wouldn’t it be like someone asking for something they don’t intend to use? If someone thinks they want heaven, but deep down wants hell, how do they even begin to change how they are and what they want deep down?

 

[RepetantCatholic]

This is a good question, thank you for asking it. I’m not certain where you read or heard of this term, but I think it’s a true experience for some to many Christians. I will share my story as a Catholic it occurred to himself: Do I love God? So, I’ve confronted my self-deception and I think it’s important that we talk about this as Catholics. If you may be experiencing this, I want to reassure you, you are not alone. I have experienced this and I hope others will be honest on here. Don’t be ashamed, support each other.

Here is where I found myself, I pray the Rosary almost daily and I love Mother Mary, Mary Magdelene, Peter, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. OK, that seems a right spot to be in. But the thought occurred to me that 1) I was placing too much of a burden on the Blessed Mother, although she is Queen of Heaven 2) I was not significantly emphasizing Jesus Christ and God. I was essentially falling into the trap Protestants and Evangelicals criticize Catholics for.

I literally felt distant from God and Jesus Christ. In self-examination, I came to terms, I wasn’t mature enough to appreciate God. Although, Jesus Christ was easy to reconcile because all I had to do is reread the Gospels and find that my whole life was influenced by the teachings of Jesus Christ. But, nonetheless, I realize I didn’t have the maturity to appreciate his Father.

I started to understand other denominations who emphasize the Old Testament more so than we do and why they are more stern, more disciplined, more righteous. So, my first step was to pray Divine Office through this website: Divine Office – Liturgy of the Hours of the Roman Catholic Church (Breviary) » Welcome to the Divine Office Community!

It’s a long journey, but the crux of it I concluded was: to love God 1) you had to acknowledge there is a Hell and a Devil 2) You have to hate the Devil while not letting that Hate consume you. That is the maturity I developed, being someone who did not want to acknowledge this figure and that place and even deep down inside hoping for universal salvation. Well, as soon as you make this acknowledgment, you start to see the world in different terms. You start to see we are fragile humans, praying, fasting, living by Faith while like Job, the Devil is allowed to turn hearts and work within the world making it harder for us. Those who choose the Devil, may succeed, feel prosperous, may feel excitement at their life, but those who choose God instead live a peaceful, simple, content life with their fellow man not at odds with others.

Finally, with maturity, you can’t do anything about those who choose the Devil. That becomes the sadness, grieving for the sinner. I daily pray for others to have discernment and repentance, but ultimately I can do little in terms of changing the direction and choices others make, even though I know it will lead to perdition.

Again, I just wrote this I thought of it. So, it’s really not thought out. I hope it makes sense. If not ask any question. At this point in my life, I pray for others but I also pray for myself that I might exude more maturity.

 

[truthseeker]

But even if they realized it and prayed that for the grace to change, would it even be granted, if they lack genuine faith and desire to change?

Hello, If someone is praying for the grace to change, they have the desire to change.
But Jesus said “Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you receive it, and you will.” Mark 11:24
So they need to work on their belief in God being able to have an effect on their lives.
But if they did not have the hope in God and belief He could help, they probably wouldn’t be praying.
So prayer is key.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Well, I think this is a great discussion but no one is replying. I got one “like” in my comment so I may have helped one person. Let me continue, because it’s painful to know what I know and feel powerless to help others. OP, ask me any questions.

The Lord’s Prayer starts with, “Our Father,” now to love the Father requires maturity. To read the Old Testament and understand it’s depths requires Maturity. So, please pray for me and others that they may have maturity. But part of developing that maturity is to give yourself the space to ask hard questions like the one you pose. Going back to, “Our Father,” it is important to see God not as our literal Father, but to see ourselves as his adopted children knowing Jesus Christ is his only True Son.

I’m 39 now and while Catholic all my life, I really stopped sinning at the age of 27 and while I have confessed all my sins to my priest I know all my sins came from immaturity; all my sins came from a naive, liberal view of the world. Again, as a Catholic I know the Father speaks to different Christians differently and while I would never convert to another denomination as I age I begin to appreciate, understand and love the more stern or Fundamentalist denominations.

In looking at the Lord’s Prayer it begins with, “Our Father,” but there is a line that is just important, “lead is not into temptation, but deliver us from Evil.” OK, I think the Catholic Church wants to change that line, and I would agree if that line was changed because it is not God leading us to temptation. But as a Catholic, I know the spirit of the line and I would write a more accurate representation would be something like, “let us not be tempted or put to the test.” So, what does that exactly mean?

I wrote part of loving the Father and having maturity is recognizing there is a Hell and a Devil or a Satan, and to hate the Devil and Satan while grieving for the sinner who is falling into Hell. So going back to the spirit of the line, “let us not be tempted or put to the test,” as you begin to renounce the world ie no longer watch tv, listen to popular music, read bad books…etc…as you move away from politics of the world not getting lured into the trap of division…etc…the Devil will tempt you and in obvious ways.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

This is personal revelation, but I hope it’s helpful, he will offer you wealth, introduce you the most beautiful people, provide you with women…etc…and, from my experience, it’s frightening. At this age of 39, it’s as obvious as Job, that fallen angels, the Devils conspirators, walk this Earth and have a certain level of control over the ways and directions of the world. Now, were I to talk to another branch of Christianity, they would tell me that is pretty obvious to them, but as a Catholic we are supposed to be the reasonable, scientific Christians who have to be rational and can’t believe in that. No, I’m telling you from personal revelation there are more than likely fallen Angels wandering around all over the place and causing havoc on the world and souls. Again, were the Devil and his Fallen Angels not involved somehow in the world there would be no need to hate him. But again, as we see in Job, the true case is he is in and around the world.

Again, I’m a compassionate, loving soul that wants nothing more than to help. My flaws are my naivety, gullibility, and my immaturity. OK, so the Devil knowing that will prey on my flaws. Others have different flaws he will prey on. But, fundamentally to hate him is to know he has the capacity and desire to ruin souls and that he and his conspirators or in and around the world doing just that. So, when we pray the Lord’s Prayer we are really asking not to be tempted or put to the test, but to deliver us from Evil. What that means is there are some Christians, potentially Catholic but potentially of other Denominations, who are so perfect in their Faith, so Mature they may not be put to the test. We hope to be among them. But for me, I have been tempted and put to the test and it is frightening and traumatic.

OK, so I’ll stop there. Again, the point is to focus in on the Father, and the Son, but to do that you must renounce the world. However, the moment you renounce the world, just as in Job, the Devil will do his tricks. So, to hate the Devil is to love God and choose God. In choosing God, you are saying, “Our Father.”

 

[goout]

As with all moral questions, they only play out in real time.
Speculation like you are engaging in can be informative, and it can help in forming your conscience. But we just don’t know how this plays out between the individual and God.

So, we need to assume that God wants us to be perfect. By contrast, if you use your knowledge to excuse immorality in the name of ignorance, you are engaging in presumption.

 

[Genesis315]

In his book on the Practice of the Love of Jesus Christ, St. Alphonsus Liguori quotes St. Teresa of Avila saying “No one is lost without knowing it; and no one is deceived without the will to be deceived.”

Ultimately, we can’t pass an absolute judgment on ourselves because only God is judge. To me, this is the true “lesson” of the doctrine that we cannot have absolute certainty of salvation. From St. Paul:

1 Cor. 4:4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart.

 

[TheLittleLady]

After valid baptism, in order to be accountable for a sin, any sin, you must know it is sinful.

Are there people who harden their own hearts and choose sin over God? Yes, and they know what they are doing.

There is no “oops, I accidentally committed mortal sin when I thought I was doing good”,

 

[Pug]

how do they even begin to change how they are and what they want deep down?

God begins that change. Ask him for the grace to see. Mark 10:51 And Jesus said to him, “What do you want me to do for you?” And the blind man said to him, “Master, let me receive my sight.”

Be patient with the Lord, for he is being patient with you. Gently persist in prayer and trust in the Lord.