The Shroud of Turin and the Druze

[Salibi]

Hello,

To start off I had no idea in which category to put this, so I put it in Traditional Catholicism for…some reason.

Alright, now that that’s taken care of, I remember watching once a documentary in which the Shroud of Turin was analyzed and the researchers found on it DNA belonging to the Druze community, a Middle Eastern ethnic group. The researchers then proposed that Jesus had Druze ancestry, or, given that Druze people as they are today coalesced into a distinct group only in the 11th century, was descended from a group who later evolved into the modern Druze.

I had intended to follow up on the documentary’s findings, but forgot until now. I have searched and there doesn’t seem to be any follow up or further study or information.

Does anyone have more information about this or knows of a follow-up?

Thank you.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

No idea, but it’s possible, as long as we allow for the fact that Jesus was descended from King David. There could have been any amount of intermarriage.

The Druze bear somewhat the same relationship and similarity to Islam, that Unitarians or Rosicrucians (or some hypothetical mash-up of the two) would have to Christianity. Interesting group of people.

Useless bit of information for today: Casey Kasem, the host of American Top 40, was Druze. “Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars”.

 

[Salibi]

No idea, but it’s possible, as long as we allow for the fact that Jesus was descended from King David. There could have been any amount of intermarriage.

Indeed, and I think there is also the issue of whether the Shroud of Turin has anything to do with Jesus at all. Scholars are not unitied on the issue.

Useless bit of information for today: Casey Kasem, the host of American Top 40 , was Druze. “Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars

Thanks! I didn’t know that.

Guess this forum isn’t the place to be looking for answers to this, but it was worth a shot. Maybe someone will turn up with something. While it isn’t a pressing concern of mine, I am nevertheless curious and shall search a bit more.

Thanks for your help.

 

[BartholomewB]

We have two CAFers, one on each side of the debate, who are both very well informed about the Shroud of Turin:

@Hugh_Farey
@undead_rat

 

[Salibi]

Thanks a lot Bartholomew!

In case you care, an article I just read on Druze genetics traced Druze origins back to ancient Armenia and Anatolia, and said that Druze and Ashkenazim have shared roots and genetics. I know several Druze people and am planning on asking their opinion tomorrow.

Solving the 1,000-year-old mystery of Druze origin with a genetic sat nav

Illuminating the origins of one of the oldest peoples in the Middle East.

theconversation.com

 

[on_the_hill]

Most of what I know about the Druze is from hearing news reports about problems in Lebanon in the early 1980s, wherein it was always, “Druze militiamen. . . .”

 

[Salibi]

You must be thinking about the Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990).

 

[Tis_Bearself]

the researchers found on it DNA belonging to the Druze community, a Middle Eastern ethnic group.

I thought the Druze were defined as a subgroup of Shiite Islam? There was no Islam yet when Jesus was alive.

I have no doubt that their ancestors lived in the Middle East at the time of Christ and may well have been around or intermarried with somebody who got their DNA on the Shroud. Also, who knows who has touched or gotten some bodily fluid on that shroud in all the years it’s purportedly been around?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Most of what I know about the Druze is from hearing news reports about problems in Lebanon in the early 1980s, wherein it was always, “Druze militiamen. . . .”

Most of what I know about them came from a tour guide pointing them out as the bus went through their neighborhood. I don’t think all what the tour guide had to say was terribly complimentary, so I will refrain from reposting it here. They had interesting hats though.

Edited to add, I did find this very interesting article about the difficulties Druze have in finding spouses.

Looking for Love in One of the World's Tiniest Religions

Think modern dating is tough? Try hunting for a husband or wife in the Druze community—adherents are forbidden from marrying outside of the faith.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Salibi]

thought the Druze were defined as a subgroup of Shiite Islam? There was no Islam yet when Jesus was alive.

Err…I am by no means an authority on Druze but my hometown is predominantly Druze and I know quite a few of them. What I know is that they started off as a splinter group of the Ismaili sect of Shi’ite Islam in the Fatimid Caliphate and believe that the then Fatimid Caliph Al-Hakim was an incarnation of God. After the caliph died he was replaced by his son who ordered their extermination. They were brutally persecuted to the point of extinction in Egypt, Damascus, and Aleppo, and only survived in Mount Lebanon, southern Syria, Mount Carmel, and Galilee, where they live right now.

have no doubt that their ancestors lived in the Middle East at the time of Christ and may well have been around or intermarried with somebody who got their DNA on the Shroud. Also, who knows who has touched or gotten some bodily fluid on that shroud in all the years it’s purportedly been aroun

All true, of course. And this is all if the Shroud is really the burial cloth of Jesus, which I presupposed in my OP.

don’t think all what the tour guide had to say was terribly complimentary, so I will refrain from reposting it here.

Did it by any chance have to do with them worshipping golden calves? That’s a common accusation levelled against them by their Muslim persecutors and they assure me that it’s completely false. (I think obviously).

Please, with all due respect, this thread is about Jesus’ ancestry, not the Druze themselves. So I politely ask posters to stay on topic as much as possible and not stray so as not to lose the original purpose of the thread, even though I am beginning to doubt whether anything found on the Shroud could be a reasonable proof of Christ’s ancient ancestry.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It wasn’t calves. BTW I don’t have any prejudice against the Druze. I loved Casey Kasem, he was hugely popular in USA when I was growing up, everybody loved him. I’ll step off now.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

the researchers found on it DNA belonging to the Druze community, a Middle Eastern ethnic group.

The Druze religion and culture are, loosely speaking, derived from Islam to some extent (and have other influences as well), but they are not Islamic and would not claim to be. As I said above, they relate to Islam somewhat like Unitarianism or Rosicrucianism would relate to Christianity. And their ancestors would have certainly existed in the area, even though those ancestors weren’t Druze, because the Druze religion didn’t exist yet

I have no doubt that their ancestors lived in the Middle East at the time of Christ and may well have been around or intermarried with somebody who got their DNA on the Shroud. Also, who knows who has touched or gotten some bodily fluid on that shroud in all the years it’s purportedly been around?

I find the Shroud to be powerful evidence of the Resurrection, though I must concede that one could thoroughly disbelieve the miraculous origin of the Shroud, and even suspect it to be a fraud, yet remain a faithful Catholic in good standing. As with private revelations, relics of disputed provenance can be accepted or not.

 

[Dan_Defender]

I like to think that Mary (and therefore Jesus) was descended from the Essenes, the same group related to the Dead Sea Scrolls, and who disappear as a Jewish sect once Christianity arrives (according to me they converted). Whether Druze are related to them or not, I have no idea. And yes, this is just my non-provable opinion.

 

[on_the_hill]

Mount Lebanon

Huh. I grew up in Mt. Lebanon.
The suburb of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, that is. I never heard of any other Mt. Lebanon. Even when I Googled it, I had to look specifically for the one in Lebanon, because all the other search results are about Mt. Lebanon, USA.

 

[thistle]

We have two CAFers, one on each side of the debate, who are both very well informed about the Shroud of Turin:

@Hugh_Farey
@undead_rat

Correct and clearly in my opinion Hugh Farey is an expert compared to undeadrat.

 

[Hugh_Farey]

Aw, shucks. Well, you’ve tempted me into joining in now! The only reputable DNA testing on the Shroud has been on dust hoovered up from the space between the Holland cloth and the Shroud itself, as reported in “Uncovering the sources of DNA found on the Turin Shroud”, by Gianni Barcaccia et al, and published in Nature in 2015. They identified 21 plants, 13 to species level. These consisted of Chicory, Soya, Hop, Walnut, Ryegrass, Plantain, Chinese Bush Peach, Almond-Leaved Pear, Black Locust, Shrub Willow, Strawberry Clover, White Clover and Knotted Clover. Most are common European Plants, and have been for centuries, while few are still only found in China or America. There is nothing that speaks to a Middle Eastern Origin for the Shroud. 7 plants were identified to Genus level. Hornbeam, Hawthorn, Cucumber, Horsetail, Tobacco, Spruce and Grape. The last identifiable plant was from the Solanaceae family, which includes Potatoes, Tomatoes and Deadly Nightshade.

Given the fairly eclectic nature of these plants, it is extraordinary that only a single animal was reported, human, although numerous animal fragments have been discovered among the debris uncovered by sticky tape sampling.

Identifying the geographical origin of any human from fragments of DNA is fraught with difficulty, as it relies on comparative studies with other (modern) humans from specific areas, some of which have been much more plentifully studied than others. Some groups of people, native to a particular area and with a tight social structure act as foci for particular gene sequences, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that anyone with that sequence is descended from that group of people. As almost everybody in Western Europe (and North America and Australia) derives from an African diaspora, via the Middle East, it is not very surprising that we all contain genes from offshoots of this diaspora, some of which have concentrated in a particular social group. Haplogroup H33 is indeed concentrated in the Druze, a relatively socially exclusive group, but is also found throughout Western Europe. It cannot be said that any of the numerous lineages found on Shroud debris definitively derive from the Druze people, anymore than from anywhere else.

 

[undead_rat]

Correct and clearly in my opinion Hugh Farey is an expert compared to undeadrat.

Of course.
Mr. Farey has an “online” BA in “science,” while i have no degree in anything and do not claim to be a “scientist.” On the other hand, Mr. Farey seems to be an adherent of modernist theology wherein the idea that a corpse could possibly vanish without a trace into another dimension is not accepted.
The Shroud contains scientific evidence that such a vanishing actually took place. The fact that It is real is as obvious as the nose on one’s face, but the modernist is forced to make up reasons that the Shroud cannot be true or else he has to give up his modernist theology.

 

[Hugh_Farey]

This is merely abuse, but not altogether atypical of authenticist attitude. You are perfectly aware that I have several times written, in the CAF, that I most certainly do accept “the idea that a corpse could possibly vanish without a trace into another dimension”. However, I do not think that the Resurrection of Christ necessarily involved such a phenomenon, and I do not think that the Shroud is evidence that it occurred. What is obvious to some people is not obvious to others, and to have to resort to veiled insults to defend your position is a poor way of convincing the uncommitted that your personal opinion, or your personal theology, is defensible.

 

[thistle]

Of course.
Mr. Farey has an “online” BA in “science,” while i have no degree in anything and do not claim to be a “scientist.” On the other hand, Mr. Farey seems to be an adherent of modernist theology wherein the idea that a corpse could possibly vanish without a trace into another dimension is not accepted.
The Shroud contains scientific evidence that such a vanishing actually took place. The fact that It is real is as obvious as the nose on one’s face, but the modernist is forced to make up reasons that the Shroud cannot be true or else he has to give up his modernist theology.

At least you are consistent and by that I mean consistently rude to Hugh.

 

[PickyPicky]

Mr. Farey has an “online” BA in “science,”

This comment might give the impression — inadvertently no doubt — that there is something inferior, even dubious, about Mr Farey’s degree.

Mr Farey graduated from the Open University, which does indeed employ distance learning. But for those unfamiliar with the institution, it is a properly accredited university, established by Royal Charter, and its degrees are fully accepted by the academic community. Scare quotes are inappropriate.

(I should put on record that I, too, hold a degree from the OU)