The Sign of the Cross that Unifies East and West style

[pegasusu]

I was wondering while thinking of how awesome it would be to Unify East and West under the Papacy and Patriarchate of Francis and Bartholomew, thought of a Sign of the Cross that “Unites both East and West Traditions”

The Sign of the Cross is done three times symbolizing the Trinity,

The First time is done the Roman/Latin way with the open hands symbolizing the five wounds of Christ; Going from left to right when saying “Holy Spirit”

The Second Time is done the Easter Catholic/Orthodox way with pinky and ring finger down symbolizing the two natures of Christ with the thumb, index, and middle finger touching each other symbolizing the Trinity; going right to left when saying “Holy Spirit”

The Third Time Unites this: When Saying the “The Father” the hand is positioned the Roman Way; When Saying “The Son” the hand changes to the Eastern way; Then depending on which Rite You Follow, you can choose to go “left to right” or “right to left” when saying the “Holy Spirit”. However when touching the first shoulder “left or right”, the hand is first positioned the Eastern Way, then when touching the second shoulder, the hand switches to the Roman way.

Thus ends the Sign of the Cross

What do you guys think?
Or am I just overreaching this?

 

[phil19034]

I was wondering while thinking of how awesome it would be to Unify East and West under the Papacy and Patriarchate of Francis and Bartholomew, thought of a Sign of the Cross that “Unites both East and West Traditions”

The Sign of the Cross is done three times symbolizing the Trinity,

The First time is done the Roman/Latin way with the open hands symbolizing the five wounds of Christ; Going from left to right when saying “Holy Spirit”

The Second Time is done the Easter Catholic/Orthodox way with pinky and ring finger down symbolizing the two natures of Christ with the thumb, index, and middle finger touching each other symbolizing the Trinity; going right to left when saying “Holy Spirit”

The Third Time Unites this: When Saying the “The Father” the hand is positioned the Roman Way; When Saying “The Son” the hand changes to the Eastern way; Then depending on which Rite You Follow, you can choose to go “left to right” or “right to left” when saying the “Holy Spirit”. However when touching the first shoulder “left or right”, the hand is first positioned the Eastern Way, then when touching the second shoulder, the hand switches to the Roman way.

Thus ends the Sign of the Cross

What do you guys think?
Or am I just overreaching this?

I think too many in both the East and West would argue that this isn’t traditional

 

[porthos11]

No. The various styles of the sign of the cross is not a source of division. Let each church’s tradition be respected.

This is not a hill to die on.

 

[AlNg]

One way to unify would be to go back to the original method of making the sign of the cross and not the newer Roman method. The Eastern method has a much earlier history and should be the one used.

 

[phil19034]

One way to unify would be to go back to the original method of making the sign of the cross and not the newer Roman method. The Eastern method has a much earlier history and should be the one used.

Unfortunately, this is the answer.

While this is not an issue for Catholics (as members of the Catholic Church do it both ways, depending on Rite, and if told to switch, most would without question {yes, I know some would complain}), however, for the Eastern Christian (not all, just the indivudals concened with this) nothing short of doing it the Byzantine way is acceptable.

To Catholics, this is a matter of discipline. To SOME Eastern Christians, it’s almost doctrine.

 

[DeniseNY]

for the Eastern Christian (not all, just the indivudals concened with this) nothing short of doing it the Byzantine way is acceptable.

A huge part of why some Eastern Catholics feel this way is that we are sometimes looked at as lesser Catholics by our Latin Rite brethren. And, as I’ve seen on this board far too often, some would like to force Latinization (I hate that word by the way) onto the Eastern Churches. If there’s a defensiveness, there’s good reason for it.

 

[eagerbeaver]

I got very tired of people moving away from me, when I had to go to Mass instead of Divine Liturgy , when I crossed myself.

There were times when I could not get to my EC Parish so I went to Mass - frequently a very uncomfortable experience

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Why would anyone care how you crossed yourself? I don’t even notice what other people are doing. Could it be you were a bit self-conscious?

 

[Fauken]

The only time someone ever made a remark on how I (a Latin-rite Catholic) cross myself was at the grocery store before I tried a food sample. That person was apparently Orthodox and we had a lovely little chat before going our separate ways.

As to the OP’s suggestion, that’s a very involved sign of the cross.

 

[Camehome4john6]

If I were to visit an EC church, I would take my clue from what they do including crossing myself according to that tradition. I would watch carefully and imitate those recievng Communion so I could do it in a way that respects my EC brethren and their traditions. It’s not being untrue to my beliefs, but being respectful to basically a different but perfectly valid and beautiful way. Perhaps you could cross yourself in the Latin way in a Latin rite church if you’re feeling self- conscious? If not, you do you and disregard other’s reactions.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

for the Eastern Christian (not all, just the indivudals concened with this) nothing short of doing it the Byzantine way is acceptable.

A huge part of why some Eastern Catholics feel this way is that we are sometimes looked at as lesser Catholics by our Latin Rite brethren. And, as I’ve seen on this board far too often, some would like to force Latinization (I hate that word by the way) onto the Eastern Churches. If there’s a defensiveness, there’s good reason for it.

Yes, I totally understand - esp from our Eastern Catholic brothers. But my comments were really more towards to the Eastern Orthodox individuals who claim the Latin way to cross oneself is heretical.

 

[phil19034]

If I were to visit an EC church, I would take my clue from what they do including crossing myself according to that tradition. I would watch carefully and imitate those recievng Communion so I could do it in a way that respects my EC brethren and their traditions. It’s not being untrue to my beliefs, but being respectful to basically a different but perfectly valid and beautiful way. Perhaps you could cross yourself in the Latin way in a Latin rite church if you’re feeling self- conscious? If not, you do you and disregard other’s reactions.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

• St Ambrose when discussing who Catholics should respond when attending a different Liturgy

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

The Oriental Orthodox cross themselves the “Latin” way also. I’ve seen it in an Antiochian Orthodox parish…I think the person was Syriac Orthodox and b/c there is no Oriental parish in my city they often go there or to the OCA (there is a small Ethiopian community which goes there).

 

[babochka]

Yes, I totally understand - esp from our Eastern Catholic brothers. But my comments were really more towards to the Eastern Orthodox individuals who claim the Latin way to cross oneself is heretical.

Have you actually met, in real life, an Orthodox Christian who believes this?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

It’s my understanding that, for a layperson not participating in a liturgical function (e.g., an altar server), the Sign of the Cross is a private devotion and you can do it however you wish. Many Latino people (and others) make the Sign and then kiss their hand. It’s up to the individual.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

Yes, I totally understand - esp from our Eastern Catholic brothers. But my comments were really more towards to the Eastern Orthodox individuals who claim the Latin way to cross oneself is heretical.

Have you actually met, in real life, an Orthodox Christian who believes this?

only online.

 

[phil19034]

It’s my understanding that, for a layperson not participating in a liturgical function (e.g., an altar server), the Sign of the Cross is a private devotion and you can do it however you wish. Many Latino people (and others) make the Sign and then kiss their hand. It’s up to the individual.

My Grandmother always held her hand the “Byzantine way”, though crossed herself the “Latin way.”

 

[DeniseNY]

As to the OP’s suggestion, that’s a very involved sign of the cross.

In the Byzantine church, we bless ourselves so often during the Divine Liturgy, that we’d end up being there all night!

 

[ziapueblo]

only online.

Where we find all the great armchair theologians on both sides

ZP

 

[babochka]

only online.

Exactly. This is a total non-issue in real life . It isn’t even on the radar for most Orthodox Christians .

My personal experience with real life Orthodox Christians, including a number of priests and Bishops, is very different than what one encounters online everyday. Rad trads exist in Orthodoxy, too. They are far from the mainstream.

This Orthodox Wiki article makes no mention of heretical or even a hint that the Western (and Oriental) way of making the sign of the cross is wrong, it just describes the differences.
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Sign_of_the_Cross

On the other hand, my first grade teacher, Sister Paul, tried very hard to break me of my “bad habit” of making the sign of the cross “backwards” . She did succeed in making me equally comfortable with making the sign of the cross the Byzantine way or the Latin way. May her memory be eternal.