The Sin of Presumption

[sandusky]

VociMike:

VociMike

Maybe yes, maybe no. But at one point in his life he certainly thought he had saving faith, you cannot deny that. He certainly believed in the name of the Son of God. Nor can you deny that others who thought at one point that they were saved, demonstrated later in life that they were not saved. There are countless stories of such people.

For that matter, you cannot possibly say that the preacher in question will not recover his faith in the future. You don’t know what his fate is, just as you don’t know what his faith was.

It is true that no one can say whether or not this man will repent, but it seems unlikely, as he has tasted the heavenly gift, was enlightened, and was a partaker of the H.S. and has walked away pretty decisively. It is also true that he “thought” that he had saving faith, but his actions show that he did not, as is James point in James 2.

The one who is truly Christ’s will not walk away, indeed, he cannot.

 

[sandusky]

RobNY:

Scripture isn’t being read in a vacuum. If there are two statements on a subject, no matter how far apart, they need to be read together and harmonized. You must agree with my on that, at least in principle.

I agree completely.

RobNY:

Of course, I think I’ve shown it. Let me try to draw my logical procession a little bit more clearly, Sandusky. Forgive me for being vague (unclear writing comes from unclear thinking).

I know you do, and I also know that one needs to develop his thoughts on this type of forum.

“That we may know we have eternal life,” needs to be read in context with the warnings in Matthew that we must 1. persevere to the end and that of Paul in Romans that we should be careful 2. lest we be cut off.

They might seem to contradict at first (to me, honestly, they don’t, but I would never think to read an ‘assurance of salvation,’ meaning onto Scripture). If we say that John’s verse means that we have assurance of salvation, then how do we read Matthew’s statement that we need to endure to the end, or Paul’s warning about being cut off from the branch we were grafted onto?

It is true that the most severe admonitions are leveled at believers in the N.T. epistles, but it is unfair to assume that all of those addressed are behaving in the manner that is being condemned; certainly some, or perhaps, even most were not; nevertheless, God is faithful to the promises that he has made concerning the believer, one of those being that believer that Christ knows, will not perish (Jn 10:28).

RobNY:

To me, it seems more rooted in the idea that God is always faithful to his covenant, as established in salvation history. It’s the one common story, man strays from God, God forms covenant, man breaks covenant. Again and again Israel strays from the path. Israel strays but God never defaults on his promises.

That is true, however, God’s old covenant with Israel is “performance based,” if you will, whereas His new covenant is one of grace, and in that respect, is presented as being unilateral, as was His covenant with Abraham.

RobNY:

This is where the idea of the ‘if and then’ comes in: God’s grace is conditional on us keeping our end of the bargain, that is, on loving God, which is obeying his commandments. As Paul says, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart." In other words, people who sow the Spirit with reap eternal life, if they do not lose heart. People who lose heart will not reap eternal life, as Paul shows.

Paul is not saying that one who loses heart will not reap eternal life. The reaping is connected with sowing to the flesh and sowing to the Spirit. In the Gk construction, the “Let us not lose heart” is in the subjunctive, and deals with the possibility that a believer can lose heart. However, losing heart is not losing salvation. “One who sows to the flesh,” OTH, is probably one who will not see eternal life. Again, by definition, if one has eternal life, and the scripture says that the believer does, he cannot lose it, because by definition, eternal life is eternal; it is not temporary.

Additionally, the believer has as his high priest, Jesus Christ, who is able to save forever those who believe, and He always lives to make intercession for the believer, and He is the believer’s advocate before the Father (Heb 7:25; 1 Jn 2:1).

RobNY:

The only variable in the equation is perhaps our rejection of God. Until you can give alternate explanations for the verses that suggest that we can lose salvation, eternal life, it is senseless to try to assert that 1 Jn 5 must refer to an assurance of salvation, because other verses explictly show that those who have been saved can be ‘cut off’ and that those who are must ‘endure.’

The believer known by Christ will not reject God (Jn 10:29).

RobNY:

Which verse in John’s gospel are we talking about?

Jn 20:31

RobNY:

It is Christ who merits the grace that saves a person, and the gift of eternal life promised to those who are saved.

Yes, but you did say the believer must do “his part.” If salvation is of Christ, what part does the believer play?

 

[sandusky]

Pedro:

I agree you will know you have eternal life if you pass John’s “test”. The big question is - when will you be judged on this “test”?

Hebrews 9:27 says man faces judgment after he dies.

But Pedro, John’s test is not one that is passed to gain salvation, but is a test to determine whether or not one has eternal life as his possession.

Pedro:

St. Paul wrote in I Corinthians 4:4-5:
"4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. "

In v4, your translation states: My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. That is not a good translation. In fact, the Gk word that yours says is “innocent” should actually be translated “righteous.” So Paul is right, a clear conscience does not determine one’s righteousness, neither does one’s sin, or lack thereof, determine one’s righteousness, but one’s faith in Christ determines one’s righeousness.

Pedro:

Since it is the Lord who will be the judge and judgment only happens at the end of one’s life, wouldn’t it be presumptuous of the believer to claim to have passed the test while still alive?

No, I don’t see that as presumptuous. John 5:24, says that the believer does not come into judgment. The believer, through his faith in Christ’s cross, is not judged for his sins; they have been forgiven because of his faith, through which the believer is also justified and declared righteous before God.

Everyone will stand before Christ, but it is the believer’s work that is judged; his sin is forgiven.

 

[sandusky]

francisca:

It is a sin to think that we can go on unrepentant and still saved.

And foolish as well.

francisca:

But the meaning of “repentant” is “a change of heart” first.

Yes, and that repentance is granted by God (Acts 11:18; 2 Cor 7:10ff). Would you agree that a repentance granted by God is a sure repentance? Furthermore, God also grants the ability to believe. And, God is the one who regenerates, and regeneration makes one a “new creation.” If one is truly newly created by God, do you believe it possible for that one to revert to a life of sin and enmity with God to the point that God would “unregenerate him?” Does God “revoke” that which He has granted based upon one’s behavior?

francisca:

We are bound to try to do the best we can, believing God will be on my side.

Yes.

francisca:

If I “intentionally” do bad things, then how can I hope that God will be “with me” ?

All sin is intentional (Jas 1:14-16). God did not abandon Abraham when Abraham sinned; God did abandon Moses when Moses sinned; nor did He abandon David, nor Peter, nor John, nor Paul; why do you believe that he would abandon any other believer whom He has “chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world”?

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

Yes, but you did say the believer must do “his part.” If salvation is of Christ, what part does the believer play?

Allow me to comment here briefly.

Christ did not win our salvation as much as he purchased our redemption.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for many.

And with our freedom we are called to be Christ unto justice, even as He was sin for us.

2 Cor 5:21 Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him.

So we absolutely must live in Christ in order to be saved.

We must take hold of this redemption and persevere to the end to reach salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also you are saved, if you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as the Son in his own house: which house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and glory of hope unto the end.

Romans 13:11 And that knowing the season; that it is now the hour for us to rise from sleep. For now our salvation is nearer than when we believed.

hurst