The Sin of Sodom and Homosexuality

  • Thread starter Thread starter Shibboleth
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Shibboleth

Guest
First off I want to ask if the Catholic Church has stated infallably that the Sin of Sodom was homosexual behavior? I do not know the answer to this question.

Second Question does “to know” mean definitively to “have intercourse with?”

I have read the Bible a few times and I have not come to the conclusion that homosexual acts were the Sin of Sodom

Sodom is mentioned many times in the Bible; and none of those times is homosexuality listed as the sin of Sodom. Deuteronomy 23:17 and I Kings 14:24 translate “temple prostitute” to “sodomite.” Even this is based on the assumption that the sins of Sodom were sexual in nature at all. “Yada” is the Hebrew word for “to know.” It is found more than 900 times in the Old Testament to mean literally “to know or be familiar with, to become acquainted.” Sodom was a tiny oasis in a vast wilderness near the Dead Sea. The only strangers (strange flesh) that they would encounter were enemy tribes wanting their valuable set-up and wanderers (dependent on their hospitality for survival- to deny it was to send them to death). For a clear explanation of the sin of Sodom see **Deuteronomy 29:22-28 and 32:32; Ezekiel 16:49-50; Jeremiah 49:18 and 50:41; Isaiah 13:19-22; Matthew 10:14-15 and Wisdom 19:13-14.**The classical orthodox understanding of this verse has nothing to do with homosexuality. If these men were homosexuals, why did Lot offer his daughters? The same with Judges 19:1-30. Even the gay-condemning understanding of this passage is not about same-sex love, it is about gang rape. Lot understood the sacredness of a guest. That is why he offered his daughters.
 
From my understanding, Lot offered his daughters, and the Sodomites refused, they wanted the men. That would indicate homosexual intent.
 
40.png
Shibboleth:
I have read the Bible a few times and I have not come to the conclusion that homosexual acts were the Sin of Sodom
Click to expand...
The author of Jude seems to think the sins of Sodom included homosexual acts. Jude 1:7 (“Likewise, Sodom, Gomorrah, and the surrounding towns, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual promiscuity and practiced unnatural vice…” NAB)

-C
 
I should have mentioned that this is not meant to be part of a homosexual agenda. I really would like to find out peoples opinions on this and in the end hopefully we all have a better understanding of this part of the bible.

As to the refusal of the women. I think this might be more due to the general hate of the outsiders and their want to abuse and humiliate them. If it was not why didn’t the men just go and be with each other.
 
40.png
Shibboleth:
First off I want to ask if the Catholic Church has stated infallably that the Sin of Sodom was homosexual behavior? I do not know the answer to this question.
Click to expand...
infallibly? I doubt it. But the ideas that marriage is between a man and a woman and that homosexual acts are sinful are both well established doctrines and Catholics are to submit themselves to the doctrines. So a Catholic would be free to interpret the Sodom story as being a sin of inhospitality, as long as they continued to accept that homosexual acts are sinful.
 
Genesis Chapter 18: Lot takes the two angels into his house. Then, men of the city (Sodom) came to him and demanded that he deliver up the angels (whom they had perceived to be men) so that they might “know” them. Lot wanted to protect the angels and was willing to allow his own daughters to be raped, but the Sodomites attempted to push past Lot to violently get at the men rather than accept the offer of the daughters. It is at that point that the angels reveal to Lot that they were sent to destroy the city.

So while the verses do not say that homosexual behavior was THE sin, it is clearly the only sin that is specifically mentioned.

Also, for what it’s worth, Isaiah 3:4 speaks of the “effeminate” ruling over all, followed by Isaiah 3:9 which states “The shew of their countenance hath answered them: and they have proclaimed abroad their sin as Sodom, and they have not hid it: woe to their souls, for evils are rendered to them.”
 
Also, for what it’s worth, Isaiah 3:4 speaks of the “effeminate” ruling over all, followed by Isaiah 3:9 which states “The shew of their countenance hath answered them: and they have proclaimed abroad their sin as Sodom, and they have not hid it: woe to their souls, for evils are rendered to them.”
Click to expand...
May I ask what Bible you are using that translates a word as “effeminate.” And if you know what word that is…

Just post the verse if you can.

I do not have my Hebrew and Greek texts with me to look up the verse, but I would like to research it this weekend. All of the translations that I have with me do not mention the “effeminate.”

I do think that sexual perversions were some of the sins of Sodom but I do not think that they are the defining sins. The other Biblical verses I listed go into further detail about Sodom.
 
40.png
Shibboleth:
May I ask what Bible you are using that translates a word as “effeminate.” And if you know what word that is…

Just post the verse if you can.

I do not have my Hebrew and Greek texts with me to look up the verse, but I would like to research it this weekend. All of the translations that I have with me do not mention the “effeminate.”

I do think that sexual perversions were some of the sins of Sodom but I do not think that they are the defining sins. The other Biblical verses I listed go into further detail about Sodom.
Click to expand...
Douay-Rheims.
“4 And I will give children to be their princes, and the effeminate shall rule over them. 5 And the people shall rush one upon another, and every man against his neighbour: the child shall make it tumult against the ancient, and the base against the honourable.”
New American Standard:
And I will make mere lads their princes,
And capricious children will rule over them,
And the people will be oppressed,
Each one by another, and each one by his neighbor;
The youth will storm against the elder
And the inferior against the honorable.
Young’s Literal:
And I have made youths their heads, And sucklings rule over them.
And the people hath exacted – man upon man, Even a man on his neighbour, Enlarge themselves do the youths against the aged, And the lightly esteemed against the honoured.
KJV:
And I will give children [to be] their princes, and babes shall rule over them.
And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour: the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honourable.
Greek Septuagint:
kai episthsw neaniskouV arcontaV autwn kai empaiktai kurieusousin autwn
kai sumpeseitai o laoV anqrwpoV proV anqrwpon kai anqrwpoV proV ton plhsion autou proskoyei to paidion proV ton presbuthn o atimoV proV ton entimon
Latin Vulgate:
et dabo pueros principes eorum et **effeminati ** dominabuntur eis
et inruet populus vir ad virum unusquisque ad proximum suum tumultuabitur puer contra senem et ignobilis contra nobilem

effeminatus - womanish.

For what it’s worth 😃
 
This is kind of what I expected. In the New Testament some translations interpret the word “malakoi” to mean “effeminate.” Other translations have it as “boy prostitute.” The word in itself just means “soft” and is applied to fabric in the book of Matthew.

In these translations we can see that word being translated as “effeminate” has had many different interpretations. None of which point to homosexual behavior but to the “soft” or the “weak” of the people… The babes, the sucklings, the capricious children… I do not see anything there that refers to a group of men raping men.
 
Yes, it involves sexuality but it also is so much more. When the angles of light came to visit Lot (because Abraham asked for favor from God to save Lot) he took them in. In Aerobic country it is important to remember at night it becomes very cold and if they, who were presumed to be human, would not have been in shelter they probably would have died. The town was filled with much hatred and cruelty. There are several verses in the Bible that refer to town’s men as being filled with much hatred for others… and they did not take to strangers (no Charity or hospitality…which is a Christian requirement!)

The story unfolds with the town’s men coming to Lots door to rape the men who were actually God’s Holy Angles. Lot even offered his virgin daughters instead. Which was a very valuable commodity when trying to find the right suitor for them, but what made Lot a great man in this story is the fact that he knew he had a responsibility to his guest…keeping them safe from these evil men. Then men didn’t care about sex. They wanted to show disrespect and shame. Often in ancient Aerobic countries you would shame men by having intercourse and treating them like a woman. Women as you know were more or less thought of as property…so that was a great insult. Likewise women who were caught in the act of adultery were punished by having all the towns men stand over her and ejaculate on her…to show her how dirty she was. Sodom and Gomorrah was an evil city and there sins were not limited to homosexuality but also a host sins just as great.

It is important to remember when reading the Bible to first read the story but also take time to understand the writers and the historical context they are being written in. I am sure you can talk to your priest and they can recommend a host of authors that would help you to better understand some of these often misunderstood and misused Bible and it’s important messages wisdom.
 
40.png
Shibboleth:
As to the refusal of the women. I think this might be more due to the general hate of the outsiders and their want to abuse and humiliate them. If it was not why didn’t the men just go and be with each other.
Click to expand...
???

Genesis 19:
4 Before they went to bed, all the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old–all the people to the last man–closed in on the house.

5 They called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intimacies with them."It seems to me the townsmen of Sodom wanted sex, first and foremost.
 
40.png
Shibboleth:
This is kind of what I expected. In the New Testament some translations interpret the word “malakoi” to mean “effeminate.” Other translations have it as “boy prostitute.” The word in itself just means “soft” and is applied to fabric in the book of Matthew.
Click to expand...
… and that is why I keep pointing to Jude which in the NAB referrs to “sexual promiscuity” and “unnatural vice.”

Jude uses “ekporneu” (“sexual promiscuity”) and “heteros sarx” (“unnatural vice” but, literally, “different flesh”). In the Jewish context, there is only one thing “different flesh” in the context of “sexuality” can refer to…

-C
 
Yes they wanted to abuse and humiliate them through sex. This is not old or new. Look at what occurred at our prisons in Iraq. They did not do this to the strangers of America because of the want to witness homosexual acts. They did it because the American’s wanted to humiliate them.

Sexual perversions are a sin of Sodom but not THE SIN OF SODOM. The sins of the city far transcend sexual desires.
 
40.png
Shibboleth:
This is kind of what I expected. In the New Testament some translations interpret the word “malakoi” to mean “effeminate.” Other translations have it as “boy prostitute.” The word in itself just means “soft” and is applied to fabric in the book of Matthew.

In these translations we can see that word being translated as “effeminate” has had many different interpretations. None of which point to homosexual behavior but to the “soft” or the “weak” of the people… The babes, the sucklings, the capricious children… I do not see anything there that refers to a group of men raping men.
Click to expand...
Well, the Greek word as I understand it is “malakos,” meaning “soft to touch.” That could make a bit of a difference.

“Bring them out so that we may know them” indicates to me that they wished to rape them, not beat them. Another English translation directly from the Greek Septuagint words this as ."that we may be with them Another translation is nearly identical.

In looking through the Latin Vulgate, I could find only 2 other instances of “effeminati,” and in the DR this was translated as “There were also the **effeminate ** in the land, and they did according to all the abominations of the people whom the Lord had destroyed before the face of the children of Israel.” 1 Kings 14:24. This seems to fit in with something that the Lord had destroyed while Israel watched…

n Hosea (4:14) “effeminati” is again translated as “effeminate” or “sodomite” (“I will not visit upon your daughters when they shall commit fornication, and upon your spouses when they shall commit adultery: because themselves conversed with harlots, and offered sacrifice with the effeminate, and the people that doth not understand shall be beaten.”).

I think the relationship is fairly clear. Your mileage may vary. 😉
 
I never said anything about beating them. Rape in and of itself is abusing and humiliating enough as it is.

In our prisons in Iraq Americans made men lay with men as women, they inserted things into them, they made them spill their seed on other men, etc…

The children of Isreal could not have witnessed the destruction of Sodom, they were not born yet.
 
I looked at Kings… the word being translated or mistranslated as “effeminate” is “qadesh” this means “someone set apart for a holy purpose.” In other words people that commit ritual acts of prostitution in order to honor their deity.

ESV: (English Standard Version): “None of the daughters of Israel shall be a cult prostitute, and none of the sons of Israel shall be a cult prostitute.”

NIV: (New International Version) “No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute.”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top