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Zooey
Guest
Q: Why should you always take two Baptists with you when you go fishing?
A: 'Cause, if you take only one, he’ll drink up all your beer.
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cheddarsox
Guest
I expect the reason she believes using alcohol is sinful is because that is what her church teaches, just like you believe what your church teaches.
I’m sure, as a Catholic, you have sometimes found yourself stumped when someone asked you to explain all the reasoning for some of the teachings of your church. Or when you provided them, perhaps they didn’t quite “make sense” to the listener.
I think you are finding yourself on the other side of the conversation.
As to why she drinks alcohol at your house…well, people are cussed that way. Often we believe one thing and do something else. Most people even manage to hold and defend completely contrasting beliefs at the very same time! Human nature is funny that way. It tends to do what is expedient at the time.
I have found this trait in all manner of people, not just Protestants.
As to why some Protestant churches teach that alcohol is sinful, a Catholic will surely be able to understand that…alcohol is considered to be a “near occasion to sin”, a slippery slope, a stumbling block, something that may cause another to sin, and therefore should be avoided. If the possible negatives, outweigh the positives…then it is best to avoid a thing. Many protestants (and others) see alcohol in that light. There are very few good reasons to use it (other than pleasure) and a whole lot of good reasons to avoid it.
It is rather like sex that way. Sex is only allowed in marriage, and with openess to children. Sex for pleasure alone in not allowed. There are lots of good reasons for this to be so. It is a protective measure. Using alcohol as medication is valid, using it for fun (with all those risks attached) is not considered a good or holy use of the thing.
cheddar
I’m sure, as a Catholic, you have sometimes found yourself stumped when someone asked you to explain all the reasoning for some of the teachings of your church. Or when you provided them, perhaps they didn’t quite “make sense” to the listener.
I think you are finding yourself on the other side of the conversation.
As to why she drinks alcohol at your house…well, people are cussed that way. Often we believe one thing and do something else. Most people even manage to hold and defend completely contrasting beliefs at the very same time! Human nature is funny that way. It tends to do what is expedient at the time.
I have found this trait in all manner of people, not just Protestants.
As to why some Protestant churches teach that alcohol is sinful, a Catholic will surely be able to understand that…alcohol is considered to be a “near occasion to sin”, a slippery slope, a stumbling block, something that may cause another to sin, and therefore should be avoided. If the possible negatives, outweigh the positives…then it is best to avoid a thing. Many protestants (and others) see alcohol in that light. There are very few good reasons to use it (other than pleasure) and a whole lot of good reasons to avoid it.
It is rather like sex that way. Sex is only allowed in marriage, and with openess to children. Sex for pleasure alone in not allowed. There are lots of good reasons for this to be so. It is a protective measure. Using alcohol as medication is valid, using it for fun (with all those risks attached) is not considered a good or holy use of the thing.
cheddar
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deb1
Guest
Actually thus far, I have not had difficulty explaining the Catholic position or beliefs. The difference between many Catholic positions and some Protestants is that we tend to read text in context. We don’t take one or two verses and make them the basis for dogma or doctrine. The Catholic Church is built on Scripture and Tradition, therefore we aren’t limited to using the bible to prove our point. We can quote early church fathers, the Catechism etc.
Ironically, the Protestant churches that claim to use bible alone as the basis for their beliefs sometimes have beliefs that can not be proved from a bible only stance. Alcohol drinking being a sin.
Of course not all Protestants take the bible out of context. I don’t want to stereotype an entire group. Sorry, if I have done that.
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Sebaldus
Guest
Growing up in the Church of Christ denomination, we were always taught that when Ephesians 5:18 says, “… be not drunk with wine …” that excluded any amount of alcohol, since even one teaspoon would make you one/teaspoonth more drunk than if you had not drank at all. It was the height of legalism.
If this is your friend’s position, then she was clearly violating her own belief. While the Bible does say not to eat meat (which was sacrificed to idols before being sold) in the presence of someone who believes that eating such meat is wrong, this doesn’t work if you turn it around … i.e., “Drink wine with those who believe drinking wine is okay, so as not to offend them.”
I doubt, however, that you were being a bad influence on your friend. She probably just wanted to have a wine cooler.
(BTW – Some people used to ask, “What is the difference between a Methodist and a member of the Church of Christ?” “The Methodist will say hello to you in the liquor store.”
)
If this is your friend’s position, then she was clearly violating her own belief. While the Bible does say not to eat meat (which was sacrificed to idols before being sold) in the presence of someone who believes that eating such meat is wrong, this doesn’t work if you turn it around … i.e., “Drink wine with those who believe drinking wine is okay, so as not to offend them.”
I doubt, however, that you were being a bad influence on your friend. She probably just wanted to have a wine cooler.
(BTW – Some people used to ask, “What is the difference between a Methodist and a member of the Church of Christ?” “The Methodist will say hello to you in the liquor store.”
)
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burnside
Guest
I feel alcohol,or too much of it,has a lot to do with violence in the home and on the streets.However,even if we have not drunk that much,how well would we react in an emergency?They say even one alcoholic drink can slow your reactions when driving and an emergency arises.A British woman who was caught up in the Tsunami admitted that,just before it happened,she had been drinking.Apparently,she was still rather dozy after a sleep when it struck.Fortunately,she was not in the worst affected areas.If she had been,would she have survived?
I drink more now than i did before retirement.I can always remember what i did the night before,but i do worry that i am guilty of taking alcohol to put a smile on my face when things are going wrong.In addition,you can’t cope with so much when you get older.When we had any kind of celebration,it was my Dad who served the drinks.In his old-age,he was getting so giggly we thought he was having an extra drink himself when he was giving the visitors a drink.So,we watched him and found him not guilty.
He just couldn’t hold it like when he was younger.
I have never understood the position of a teetotal Baptist friend with alcohol.He takes wine at Communion and he can’t claim that it is Christ’s Body and Blood.
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Lillith
Guest
Thank you Sebaldus…this was what I was trying to grasp…Growing up in the Church of Christ denomination, we were always taught that when Ephesians 5:18 says, “… be not drunk with wine …” that excluded any amount of alcohol, since even one teaspoon would make you one/teaspoonth more drunk than if you had not drank at all. It was the height of legalism.
If this is your friend’s position, then she was clearly violating her own belief. While the Bible does say not to eat meat (which was sacrificed to idols before being sold) in the presence of someone who believes that eating such meat is wrong, this doesn’t work if you turn it around … i.e., “Drink wine with those who believe drinking wine is okay, so as not to offend them.”
I doubt, however, that you were being a bad influence on your friend. She probably just wanted to have a wine cooler.
(BTW – Some people used to ask, “What is the difference between a Methodist and a member of the Church of Christ?” “The Methodist will say hello to you in the liquor store.”
I love the Joke BTW
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VociMike
Guest
In John 2 the steward says to the bridegroom “Every man serves the good wine first; and when men have drunk freely, then the poor wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.”
That approach to wine serving only makes sense if the wine is alchoholic, thus dulling the guests’ senses as to the lower quality of the later wine. It is clear that Jesus made alchoholic wine (about 150 gallons worth), and at a wedding feast where the guests were drinking a lot (for presumably the hosts thought they had enough wine, but the guests went through it all and wanted more).
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Reid
Guest
This is a little funny to me as a former Baptist.
Which most Baptist are taught not to drink bc it is sin.
And their defense is that well Jesus and others in the bible drunk unfermented wine. The irony is although they believe in the “bible alone” policy this is one of many examples where they have to step away from the bible and presume that the wine in the bible was unfermented.
Now if they stuck with their “bible allone” mentality they would see that Noah got drunk from drinking too much wine, thatthe bible encourges a hard drink to help settle the stomach, and also goes to the extreme of actualy gettinng drunk as long as is in fellowship with the Lord.
By the “bible alone” policy I could build my case for an independant doctrine that I am required by faith to drink.
And using the “bible alone” policy I can build my case that drinking is a sin.
This is why the “bible alone” policy does not work, every Christian Church does it, even the so called non-christian cults, will take a verse to prove their point.
Which most Baptist are taught not to drink bc it is sin.
And their defense is that well Jesus and others in the bible drunk unfermented wine. The irony is although they believe in the “bible alone” policy this is one of many examples where they have to step away from the bible and presume that the wine in the bible was unfermented.
Now if they stuck with their “bible allone” mentality they would see that Noah got drunk from drinking too much wine, thatthe bible encourges a hard drink to help settle the stomach, and also goes to the extreme of actualy gettinng drunk as long as is in fellowship with the Lord.
By the “bible alone” policy I could build my case for an independant doctrine that I am required by faith to drink.
And using the “bible alone” policy I can build my case that drinking is a sin.
This is why the “bible alone” policy does not work, every Christian Church does it, even the so called non-christian cults, will take a verse to prove their point.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
I think a distinction needs to be drawn between American Protestants and Protestants in other parts of the world on this issue.
During the Great Awakening in the 1800’s, when gold miners and others moved out West, the Church didn’t move with it. Saloons helped alcoholism and prostitition thrive - and when the Church did make it out West, it had its hands full. Wives who were concerned about their family’s welfare started the temperance movement… and found the Church the logical institution to serve as their base. Moderation never got a chance, because alcoholism was rampant.
Today’s attitudes in many American Protestant churches are leftover from the above era. More and more, moderation is preached - not just for alcohol, but in all things. Alcoholism is quickly being replaced by food and sexual addictions in terms of costs, health, and damage to families. We live in interesting times, I fear.
Having said that… some people just don’t need to drink. Whether hereditary, or just poor impulse control, some people are just not predisposed to good judgment when it comes to drinking alcohol. That’s a spiritual matter.
O+
During the Great Awakening in the 1800’s, when gold miners and others moved out West, the Church didn’t move with it. Saloons helped alcoholism and prostitition thrive - and when the Church did make it out West, it had its hands full. Wives who were concerned about their family’s welfare started the temperance movement… and found the Church the logical institution to serve as their base. Moderation never got a chance, because alcoholism was rampant.
Today’s attitudes in many American Protestant churches are leftover from the above era. More and more, moderation is preached - not just for alcohol, but in all things. Alcoholism is quickly being replaced by food and sexual addictions in terms of costs, health, and damage to families. We live in interesting times, I fear.
Having said that… some people just don’t need to drink. Whether hereditary, or just poor impulse control, some people are just not predisposed to good judgment when it comes to drinking alcohol. That’s a spiritual matter.
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deb1
Guest
O.S. Luke:
I think that the same can be true for drinking alcohol. It is the extreme fundamentalist person who announces to you that the occasional beer you drink will send you to hell, that gets noticed more. Not the quiet Lutheran who might be sharing that beer with you.
I used the above example because my sister is Lutheran and we share a glass of wine now and then.
Thank you. I think that some times we are guilty of lumping all Protestant beliefs under the same tent. This is unfair. Sadly, it is the more extreme element in any religion that gets the most attention.
I think that the same can be true for drinking alcohol. It is the extreme fundamentalist person who announces to you that the occasional beer you drink will send you to hell, that gets noticed more. Not the quiet Lutheran who might be sharing that beer with you.
I used the above example because my sister is Lutheran and we share a glass of wine now and then.
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Little_Mary
Guest
Reid, I really love this argument. I am going to print it out and save it for future reference. To that end, can you refer me to a couple of verses for each argument (required by faith to drink
versus drinking is a sin)Thanks :clapping: :bowdown2:
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siamesecat
Guest
That’s my feeling on alcoholPersonally, although I would agree that there isn’t anything intriniscally wrong with alcohol, I really don’t think any real good can come from it either. I mean, look at the fruits. The bad: broken families, people killed by drunk drivers, people doing things they regret later. The good: ummm, it helps you socialize. If you’re not drinking it to get drunk, what’s the point? With all the negatives, why even bother?
You gotta remember too that back in Biblical times, they didn’t have refrigerators so everything fermented. So if you wanted something to drink besides dirty water, wine was all you had, and maybe some warm goat milk.
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deb1
Guest
I’ve often wondered about the claim that all anyone had to drink was wine. It seems like the men that took the Nazirites vows as did John the Baptist must have had horrible trouble with dirty water. A nazierit promises to Numer 6:3 they shall separate themselves from wine and strong drink; they shall drink no wine vinegar or other vinegar and shall not drink any grape juice or eat grapes, fresh or dried. 4 All their days as nazirites they shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, not even the seeds or the skins.Personally, although I would agree that there isn’t anything intriniscally wrong with alcohol, I really don’t think any real good can come from it either. I mean, look at the fruits. The bad: broken families, people killed by drunk drivers, people doing things they regret later. The good: ummm, it helps you socialize
You gotta remember too that back in Biblical times, they didn’t have refrigerators so everything fermented. So if you wanted something to drink besides dirty water, wine was all you had, and maybe some warm goat milk.
So there were a group of people during the time period that were drinking water. Besides, they didn’t know about microoragnisms and bacteria, how would they have known that water would make them sick. If they didn’t know that water made them sick, why would they have avoided it?
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surfinpure
Guest
As far as I can tell with my own human (and Catholic) intellect, wine and Valium are only substantively different in that Valium never occurs in nature. The two seem for the most part equally permissible, although if I had to choose one or the other based on moral validity, I’d choose wine. Why? Because, as other posters have pointed out, it is allowed in Scripture for “gladdening the heart.” Obviously any beverage that has this effect has to be fermented to some degree (or else loaded with sugar).
Valium is man’s way of dealing with physical suffering. Unlike wine, nobody serves Valium at weddings. Nobody gives it out at parties (not in polite society, anyway). Nobody brings you a bottle of Valium as a housewarming gift. It’s only a medication and must only be used to treat a physical malady. To use this substance in any other context is to misuse it, or to sin.
Wine, however, is acceptable in many different settings, and it only becomes a sin when consumed to excess. Medical studies tell us that it even benefits our hearts (how’s that for a new interpretation of Scripture?) if consumed in small amounts daily. It also makes for joyous celebrations, and, most importantly, it becomes the Holy Eucharist when blessed at Mass.
Quite obviously wine is a tool God has given us, a blessing. When used as He intended, we all benefit from it. Valium? Valium is just a drug.
Valium is man’s way of dealing with physical suffering. Unlike wine, nobody serves Valium at weddings. Nobody gives it out at parties (not in polite society, anyway). Nobody brings you a bottle of Valium as a housewarming gift. It’s only a medication and must only be used to treat a physical malady. To use this substance in any other context is to misuse it, or to sin.
Wine, however, is acceptable in many different settings, and it only becomes a sin when consumed to excess. Medical studies tell us that it even benefits our hearts (how’s that for a new interpretation of Scripture?) if consumed in small amounts daily. It also makes for joyous celebrations, and, most importantly, it becomes the Holy Eucharist when blessed at Mass.
Quite obviously wine is a tool God has given us, a blessing. When used as He intended, we all benefit from it. Valium? Valium is just a drug.
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Gottle_of_Geer
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CanonAlberic
Guest
Total ****… If you want to have a drink, bid deal. Now I do feel that it’ s a sin to drink cheap garbage, so…
BEER:
Any of the swill from Anheuser Busch, Miller or Corona. SIN, since it’s not actually “beer”.
Guinness, Sam Adams, or any real beer… NOT a sin, even if you get drunk. God digs a tasty beer (special indulgences awarded for drinking quality IPA’s)
Whiskey/Tequila
Chinaco Anejo, El Tesoro de Don Felipe Anejo, Lapiz Azul (tequila) and/or Blanton’s Single Barrel, Wild Turkey Rare Breed or any single-malt Scots whisky from the Isle of Skyy… ANNOINTED!!! Jack Daniels, Jim Beam or Cuervo… drinking this rotgut WILL consign you to a special pace in hell.
Wine
Doesn’t matter, it all tastes like **** (including the “Franzia” that I swear a lot of churche are using nowadays.
Peace.
BEER:
Any of the swill from Anheuser Busch, Miller or Corona. SIN, since it’s not actually “beer”.
Guinness, Sam Adams, or any real beer… NOT a sin, even if you get drunk. God digs a tasty beer (special indulgences awarded for drinking quality IPA’s)
Whiskey/Tequila
Chinaco Anejo, El Tesoro de Don Felipe Anejo, Lapiz Azul (tequila) and/or Blanton’s Single Barrel, Wild Turkey Rare Breed or any single-malt Scots whisky from the Isle of Skyy… ANNOINTED!!! Jack Daniels, Jim Beam or Cuervo… drinking this rotgut WILL consign you to a special pace in hell.
Wine
Doesn’t matter, it all tastes like **** (including the “Franzia” that I swear a lot of churche are using nowadays.
Peace.
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