The sinfulness of lost faith

[Ron_Conte]

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Canon 1364 §1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

It is an objective mortal sin to commit apostasy, heresy, or schism. In order for any of these sins, which are objectively gravely disordered, to be also an actual mortal sin (causing the loss of the state of grace), the sin must be committed with full knowledge that it is gravely immoral, and with full deliberation (i.e. full consent).

These three types of sin inherently cut the person off from the Church because each of these sins constitutes a rejection of the Church in some fundamental way.

However, grace for repentance, and the forgiveness of the confessional, are always available.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Oh, your totally right. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear-I know people were not saying that, I was just reminding them.

My bad…sorry.

No biggy.

 

[Rence]

one thing Christ definitely said is a sin, about the worst one can commit, is to lead the innocent astray. He warned that those who cause these little ones to sin, it would be better had they never been born, as they will be cast into the pit of eternal fire. So in addition to the actual crimes of abuse those who were guilty, and those who aided and abetted their crimes as accessories after the fact, or who failed to protect those under their care, will share the guilt if some leave the Faith due to this scandal.

**I agree. If someone has done something so bad as to shake another peron’s faith, that person who commited the scandal, is the one responsible. Not the victim. **

It must be pointed out that nothing should diminish our Faith in Jesus Christ, we place our faith in Him, not in human creatures, so the actions of human creatures should not affect our Faith in the Lord. He himself warned us that those he chose to lead the Church would fail, so we should expect frailty on their part. The sinfulness of the preacher does not lessen the Truth of the message if the message comes from Christ Himself. So yes it would be sinful to reject Jesus because of the sins of his followers. But as Christ also warned, if that person does leave the Church because of the scandal of those sinful leaders, those leaders will be held accountable for each soul who is lost through their actions.
**As it should be. **

 

[hellopeople]

I believe I am with God; I simply don’t believe that today’s Roman Catholic Church is the “one true Church”.

I am on the same page. I refuse to believe that people that know of the Church and reject its messages are condemned to hell and to be honest I refuse to believe that a person could spend hell in eternity because they used contraception or masturbated without going to confession before their death. These things don’t add up in my mind.

 

[angeleyes326]

one thing Christ definitely said is a sin, about the worst one can commit, is to lead the innocent astray. He warned that those who cause these little ones to sin, it would be better had they never been born, as they will be cast into the pit of eternal fire. So in addition to the actual crimes of abuse those who were guilty, and those who aided and abetted their crimes as accessories after the fact, or who failed to protect those under their care, will share the guilt if some leave the Faith due to this scandal.

It must be pointed out that nothing should diminish our Faith in Jesus Christ, we place our faith in Him, not in human creatures, so the actions of human creatures should not affect our Faith in the Lord. He himself warned us that those he chose to lead the Church would fail, so we should expect frailty on their part. The sinfulness of the preacher does not lessen the Truth of the message if the message comes from Christ Himself. So yes it would be sinful to reject Jesus because of the sins of his followers. But as Christ also warned, if that person does leave the Church because of the scandal of those sinful leaders, those leaders will be held accountable for each soul who is lost through their actions.

I could not have explained this better my self. Priests, Bishops, even the Pope are only human beings. We all were given free will. It’s our choice to live by the 10 Commandments or not. Please do not lose your faith over a humans choice to sin. God loves us so much that he sent his only son to die on the cross for our sins. He is always here with us. Keep the faith. It’s the only thing to hang onto in this crazy world.

 

[Rence]

*Quote:
Originally Posted by puzzleannie
one thing Christ definitely said is a sin, about the worst one can commit, is to lead the innocent astray. He warned that those who cause these little ones to sin, it would be better had they never been born, as they will be cast into the pit of eternal fire. So in addition to the actual crimes of abuse those who were guilty, and those who aided and abetted their crimes as accessories after the fact, or who failed to protect those under their care, will share the guilt if some leave the Faith due to this scandal.

It must be pointed out that nothing should diminish our Faith in Jesus Christ, we place our faith in Him, not in human creatures, so the actions of human creatures should not affect our Faith in the Lord. He himself warned us that those he chose to lead the Church would fail, so we should expect frailty on their part. The sinfulness of the preacher does not lessen the Truth of the message if the message comes from Christ Himself. So yes it would be sinful to reject Jesus because of the sins of his followers. But as Christ also warned, if that person does leave the Church because of the scandal of those sinful leaders, those leaders will be held accountable for each soul who is lost through their actions. *

I could not have explained this better my self. Priests, Bishops, even the Pope are only human beings. We all were given free will. It’s our choice to live by the 10 Commandments or not. Please do not lose your faith over a humans choice to sin. God loves us so much that he sent his only son to die on the cross for our sins. He is always here with us. Keep the faith. It’s the only thing to hang onto in this crazy world.

The way I see it, it’s WAY more important to love God than to entrust one’s salvation to humans, even if they are part of the Church. They’re only human. Trust in God. He is Perfect.

 

[Rascalking]

I’m Catholic, (even though I’m still irritated) and I thiknk that there are many ways to God. Some are more direct, but I think they still get you there

 

[Lrabbitt]

Our God is the God of Justice and Mercy and He Reigns.

“Tout Comprendre C’est Tout Pardoner” - To understand all is to forgive all.

Believe in the amazing Mercy and Love of our Lord. Jesus died for us with love.

There is nowhere He cannot find you. It’s OK if you need to be closed to the Church right now. Just open your heart to Jesus and address your righteous complaints, sadness and even rage to Him. He can take it. He wants to heal you personally. He is also, I imagine, mightily dismayed at clergy sexual abuse.

Justice and Mercy. The two go together.

 

[pmcmp]

Jesus will sit at the right hand of the father and come to judge the living and the dead. Jesus and only Jesus knows what is in a person’s heart. Jesus and only Jesus knows who will be saved. The Church does not know because the Church does not know what is in a person’s heart. I’ve been fifty years as a Catholic and do not remember ever being taught or told that only Catholics will be saved. I find this selfish and have a hard time believing Jesus would support such a claim. I think Jesus would celebrate the diversity of Christian faiths – at least those firmly rooted in the Gospels – and not condemn one over another.

 

[kage_ar]

Jesus will sit at the right hand of the father and come to judge the living and the dead. Jesus and only Jesus knows what is in a person’s heart. Jesus and only Jesus knows who will be saved. The Church does not know because the Church does not know what is in a person’s heart. I’ve been fifty years as a Catholic and do not remember ever being taught or told that only Catholics will be saved. I find this selfish and have a hard time believing Jesus would support such a claim. I think Jesus would celebrate the diversity of Christian faiths – at least those firmly rooted in the Gospels – and not condemn one over another.

Suggest reading all of Article 9
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm
, as well as the document on the subject that came out a year or two ago from the Vatican vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[Mig]

You’ve a billion people in your Church, and you’re surprised to find sin? I’m surprised how easily you let the opinions of those who hate you sway you so. And have no doubt, it’s those who hate Christ who have submerged themselves in hating you.

Stand fast. Purify. Fear not.

 

[FanChan]

In regards to the scandals - Yes, they are an awful thing, more shocking to the world than scandals of schoolteachers and doctors and whatever else because these men are meant to be an example to us. However, I think too often we equate priests with saints-on-earth, and thus are that much more horrified when they make mistakes, or turn out to be dirtbags.

The bigger shock to me is how unforgiving we Catholics can be towards these men. Yes, they were meant to be an example to us, and failed, but what does it say of us who fail to forgive, one of the largest pillars of our faith? In the church I grew up in, having spent nine years there after joining when I was seven, our priest was caught up in a scandal (though thankfully one that didn’t involve children). This was a man I had the greatest respect for. I went to the school attached to that church, I worked for him as a secretary in the rectory, he led my confirmation classes. And then one day, he vanished, whisked away just as the scandal got out. It was sad, distressing, and I was angry we didn’t have a chance to say goodbye. I could immediately forgive him, though perhaps because I wasn’t involved. I was confused and angry at the other parishioners for leaving the church because of this. Then again, these are people that left the parish in anger when the school was closed, as well - even the folks who didn’t have kids.

Are we Catholic because of a priest? How many more Saints does our Church boast in comparison to priests caught up in scandals? What does that say in comparison to other faiths, other practices, other vocations? That we have so few scandals should be a testament to not only our faith, but the process of becoming a priest. That someone can lose their faith in the Church, or even the Priesthood, because of a few men tells me - and should tell you - that that someone’s faith wasn’t very strong.

The world must cast a bad light on the Church. If we are indeed the One True Church, as I believe we are, then the Devil must do everything he can to infiltrate it, to cause it to fall. He’s been trying for 2000 years. And yet, in a world that values scientific fact over reasonable faith, we continue to grow. The press gobble up the tales of scandals, but how many more amazing, wonderful stories could they be telling about good priests? Like Fr. Flannigan, the founder of Boy’s Town. How about the stories of Catholic charities, of our hospitals, our soup kitchens, our orphanages, our missionaries? If they’re mentioned at all, it’s in passing, a brief reference in a larger story if one happens to be involved, like the Catholic orphanages in Haiti.

On a different note, regarding the state of those who turn their back on the Church, you’re right to say that not only Catholics will be saved (and that not all Catholics-by-name will be saved). However, there is a difference between never having sat at the banquet table, to be saved by the fact that you did not know any better, and having sat at the table and choosing to leave. Would the Prodigal son have been saved if he had never returned to the father? The father said he was dead, but now, now that he has returned, he is alive again.

Only God knows which of us will be saved, and there very well may be those who have fallen away from the Church who will see Heaven. But are you willing to bet your soul on being a member of the exception? Never stop questioning, never stop searching, for your very life depends on it.

 

[PJM]

=rfulks;6458412]Is it considered a sin to lose one’s faith in Christ and the Catholic Church?

I am thinking particularly of the sexual abuse scandal that has been rocking our Church for the past decade or two.

If someone who had been previously devout and became a victim of sexual abuse at the hand of a priest subsequently (and understandably) lost his faith as a consequence of that abuse, would he be considered a sinner? Would he be condemned eternally if he stopped attending Mass, stopped receiving the Blessed Sacrament, stopped believing in God entirely? I cannot imagine that would be a sin. What if someone who was not a victim of abuse still decided against following the teachings of the Church because of the scandal? If someone loses faith because their own pastor of 5 or 6 years - whom they trusted entirely and around the teachings of whom they lived their life - was accused and convicted of the most malicious crimes against the innocent, would that person be a sinner?

How sinful is it to lose one’s faith, if one has a valid reason?

***It’s serious enough to send one to Hell for all Eternity. But please don’t take my word for it. Here’s God’s own view:

There quite simply is NO VALID EXCUSE POSSIBLE***

Heb. 6: 4-8 “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift**,[Catholic Holy Communion] **and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, **and have tasted the goodness of the word of God **and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.”

Get BACK TO GOD… He misses you:thumbsup:

Love add prayers,

Pat