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CDNowak
Guest
Chronological?
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jaedle
Guest
Chronological, not alphabetical. Thanks for the correction!
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
If you study at a college, be careful with whom you study. Philosophy instruction is much dominated in certain quarters by atheists and agnostics. Even college peers studying philosophy often will try to influence their fellow students toward atheism.
If I had to start philosophy studies today, I would make it a point to study the problem of atheism first and foremost. Not only would I canvass what all the philosophers have said about God, I would approach the psychologists as well, who have had a profound effect on the growth of atheism in modern times.
Read Dr. Paul Vitz’s psychological analysis of atheism as a problem rooted in the emotions rather than in the intellect. Google his name. He is a bright fellow who fell into atheism for a while, then found his way back, by tracking atheist thinkers down through history and noting a condition of upbringing that most of them fell into as the root cause of their atheism.
Just as religion is not so much an affair of the head as an affair of the heart, atheism is not really an affair of the head so much as an affair of the heart. That doesn’t stop atheists from pretending that it must certainly be the former rather than the latter.
As Socrates said, “Know thyself.”
And as Plato said:
“Atheism is a disease of the soul before it becomes an error of understanding”
If I had to start philosophy studies today, I would make it a point to study the problem of atheism first and foremost. Not only would I canvass what all the philosophers have said about God, I would approach the psychologists as well, who have had a profound effect on the growth of atheism in modern times.
Read Dr. Paul Vitz’s psychological analysis of atheism as a problem rooted in the emotions rather than in the intellect. Google his name. He is a bright fellow who fell into atheism for a while, then found his way back, by tracking atheist thinkers down through history and noting a condition of upbringing that most of them fell into as the root cause of their atheism.
Just as religion is not so much an affair of the head as an affair of the heart, atheism is not really an affair of the head so much as an affair of the heart. That doesn’t stop atheists from pretending that it must certainly be the former rather than the latter.
As Socrates said, “Know thyself.”
And as Plato said:
“Atheism is a disease of the soul before it becomes an error of understanding”
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jpjd
Guest
Charlemagne, your post was very interesting to me.
I am studying philosophy on my own out of my own curiosity, but also I am concerned because my son will be attending college next year and he is very interested in philosophy. Also his faith is strong now, I know that a study of philosophy led by a professor with atheist leanings can be a danger to his faith. I want to be able to understand enough that I can point out the errors and point him in the right direction, if need be. I will definitely take a look at Dr. Vitz’s writings.
I am studying philosophy on my own out of my own curiosity, but also I am concerned because my son will be attending college next year and he is very interested in philosophy. Also his faith is strong now, I know that a study of philosophy led by a professor with atheist leanings can be a danger to his faith. I want to be able to understand enough that I can point out the errors and point him in the right direction, if need be. I will definitely take a look at Dr. Vitz’s writings.
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jpjd
Guest
That should say “**Although **his faith is strong now…”
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uscav_21
Guest
I would not worry about your son’s interest. Studying Philosophy at a public university, or a secular university is okay. I majored in Philosophy at a secular school and my faith was never shaken. But word of warning, you will need to put on your big boy pants because there will be many debates, especially concerning the existence of God. As for you, I would recommend as many have, to begin with Plato, Aristotle, the book titled “The Republic”. Also research online the theory of the forms, for an understanding of this theory is essential to the writings of Plato. If you want to read some early modern philosophers there is an excellent resource online. earlymoderntexts.com/ Its free!
But if you want to be able to help your son, you will need to study philosophers who are not religious, and some are anti-Christian. A dictionary of philosophy would also be helpful. Philosophy is an interesting subject and is divided into many sub-categories, so even a book or two on logic should be reviewed. I will be starting on a PhD in philosophy very soon, so if you have any questions I will help as much as possible.
But if you want to be able to help your son, you will need to study philosophers who are not religious, and some are anti-Christian. A dictionary of philosophy would also be helpful. Philosophy is an interesting subject and is divided into many sub-categories, so even a book or two on logic should be reviewed. I will be starting on a PhD in philosophy very soon, so if you have any questions I will help as much as possible.
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
Are you a platonist?
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ZDHayden
Guest
I would have to state that you should start with the Greeks, then Aquinas. Aristotle is a personal favorite of mine. For a novice Aquinas is a bit thick (believe me, I tried). If, however, you have Aquinas and Augustine under your belt by the time you study formally the field, you will be well prepared to keep the faith and delve deep into the field of philosophy at the same time.
WARNING: personal testimony follows –
While it was depression that was the medium by which God drove me to the Church, philosophy has only solidified my faith in our God. While I am an English Ed. major, I am planning on minoring in philosophy (its either that or geography – haven’t made up my mind yet). But regardless, I plan on studying philosophy and theology on my own. And just a recommendation: Augustine is far easier to read than Aquinas but is just as deep, although not as explicit, so you have to have really good reading skills to study him.
WARNING: personal testimony follows –
While it was depression that was the medium by which God drove me to the Church, philosophy has only solidified my faith in our God. While I am an English Ed. major, I am planning on minoring in philosophy (its either that or geography – haven’t made up my mind yet). But regardless, I plan on studying philosophy and theology on my own. And just a recommendation: Augustine is far easier to read than Aquinas but is just as deep, although not as explicit, so you have to have really good reading skills to study him.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
Since much of modern philosophy defies common sense, and since anyone studying philosophy need to keep grounded in common sense, any student will find any books by Chesterton very healthy reminders of how far astray the world has gone from common sense. Chesterton had a way of showing through the device of paradox how modern philosophy has turned reason upside down, and why it must once again be turned right side up. 
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uscav_21
Guest
I am sympathetic towards Platonist philosophy, but I don’t believe I would consider myself to be a fully pledge Platonist. However, I do enjoy the works of Plato. But I have focused more on the modern period as well as 20th century philosophy. This is the group giving rise to the new atheism, and I tend to spend a lot of time countering atheist philosophy. Perhaps it was out of necessity due to me studying philosophy at a secular university. But each person has a certain area in philosophy that they find interest in. And I do enjoy Plato.
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
Please pleasure me be giving a platonic argument for Gods existence.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
Plato posited a basic argument in The Laws (Book X), in which he argued that motion in the world and the Cosmos was “imparted motion” that required some kind of “self-originated motion” to set it in motion and to maintain that motion. He also suggested a “demiurge” of supreme wisdom and intelligence as the creator of the Cosmos in his work Timaeus.
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
Wait a minute…that’s like Aquinas’s argument from motion!!!
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JohnDamian
Guest
The argument for motion was developed along time before Aquinas, and a long time afterWait a minute…that’s like Aquinas’s argument from motion!!!
Although it would be a bit silly to use Plato’s somewhat underdeveloped version in an argument against atheists as uscav_21. I do like dialectic reasoning as a means of discourse as it is informal and a good way to convey information. Perhaps that is what Uscav was meaning.
Although, Aquinas rendition of the arguments are much more concise, simple and easier to understand than later arguments; such as those of Kant or Scotus; and so are good to use with regards to discussing the basics - particularily with people not well versed in philosophy.
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Abba
Guest
My pleasure Okay, well, I am not in the league of most of the writers on this forum and I am mostly a self taught person, but, I want to share my two cents worth. Now, I haven’t read Plato in over twenty years, but, I did read all his writings. I fell in love with Plato when I was sixteen when I found some old books in a dusty, dirty basement.
That said, and don’t ask me for a quote because it is not fresh in my mind nor do I have the time to go search it out. But, here I go…
I think that the most beautiful way that Plato proves the existence of God is with his theory of absolutes. That is that there are absolutes for somethings that we experience in this reality, e.g. Beauty, Truth, Good, Love, etc… and that all these absolutes exactly because of their beauty and qualities must be ONE.
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Abba
Guest
P.s. I was trying to refresh my memory a little bit and searched to see if Plato held LOVE to be the highest good but, I cannot conclude, it may have been GOOD. This is all better known as most of you already know as Plato’s Theory of Forms. That’s how rusty I am on this topic.
He could have developed it closer to expressing the actual existence of God but, he did pretty good. He came very close to noting what John proclaimed 400 years later: God is Love.
Personally, I think that Plato was blessed by God. God probably took pity on Plato and blessed him with some wisdom. The poor thing, pondered and pondered, but, what he came up with and how far he got he could only have done so with the Grace of God. This must be true because finally, it is God who gives knowledge of himself.
Matthew
Chapter 16
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16
11 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
Here is a summuary from wiki:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Forms
He could have developed it closer to expressing the actual existence of God but, he did pretty good. He came very close to noting what John proclaimed 400 years later: God is Love.
Personally, I think that Plato was blessed by God. God probably took pity on Plato and blessed him with some wisdom. The poor thing, pondered and pondered, but, what he came up with and how far he got he could only have done so with the Grace of God. This must be true because finally, it is God who gives knowledge of himself.
Matthew
Chapter 16
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16
11 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
Here is a summuary from wiki:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Forms
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Robster7
Guest
For a beginner, I strongly recommend starting with An Introduction To Philosophy
The Perennial Principles of the Classical Realist Tradition
By: Daniel Sullivan, available from TAN Books.
tanbooks.com/index.php/An-Introduction-To-Philosophy
It provides an understanding of philosophy from a Catholic perspective. It won’t befuddle and frustrate you with abstraction and put you off the topic for life.
Plato’s The Apology. In that essay, Socrates speaks and gives you a basic idea about what philosophy should be about.
*The Story of Philosophy *by Will Durant, at least chapters on Greek Philosophy
If you manage to get through these, try the following.
Aristototle for Everybody by Mortimer Adler.
Introduction to Philosophy by Jacques Maritain.
**
But start with Sullivan: it’s basic and won’t scare you off the topic.
Philosophy can be very difficult for the beginner; starting off in the wrong place can scare you off pretty quick
The Perennial Principles of the Classical Realist Tradition
By: Daniel Sullivan, available from TAN Books.
tanbooks.com/index.php/An-Introduction-To-Philosophy
It provides an understanding of philosophy from a Catholic perspective. It won’t befuddle and frustrate you with abstraction and put you off the topic for life.
Plato’s The Apology. In that essay, Socrates speaks and gives you a basic idea about what philosophy should be about.
*The Story of Philosophy *by Will Durant, at least chapters on Greek Philosophy
If you manage to get through these, try the following.
Aristototle for Everybody by Mortimer Adler.
Introduction to Philosophy by Jacques Maritain.
**
But start with Sullivan: it’s basic and won’t scare you off the topic.
Philosophy can be very difficult for the beginner; starting off in the wrong place can scare you off pretty quick
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
From Plato’s The Laws (Book X) the Athenian Stranger makes the following interesting remarks about atheists. Perhaps Plato was guiding the policy of the Inquisition regarding the burning of atheists?
*There are many kinds of unbelievers, but two only for whom legislation is required; one the hypocritical sort, whose crime is deserving of death many times over, while the other needs only bonds and admonition. In like manner also the notion that the Gods take no thought of men produces two other sorts of crimes, and the notion that they may be propitiated produces two more. Assuming these divisions, let those who have been made what they are only from want of understanding, and not from malice or an evil nature, be placed by the judge in the House of Reformation, and ordered to suffer imprisonment during a period of not less than five years. And in the meantime let them have no intercourse with the other citizens, except with members of the nocturnal council, and with them let them converse with a view to the improvement of their soul’s health. And when the time of their imprisonment has expired, if any of them be of sound mind let him be restored to sane company, but if not, and if he be condemned a second time, let him be punished with death. As to that class of monstrous natures who not only believe that there are no Gods, or that they are negligent, or to be propitiated, but in contempt of mankind conjure the souls of the living and say that they can conjure the dead and promise to charm the Gods with sacrifices and prayers, and will utterly overthrow individuals and whole houses and states for the sake of money-let him who is guilty of any of these things be condemned by the court to be bound according to law in the prison which is in the centre of the land, and let no freeman ever approach him, but let him receive the rations of food appointed by the guardians of the law from the hands of the public slaves; and when he is dead let him be cast beyond the borders unburied, and if any freeman assist in burying him, let him pay the penalty of impiety to any one who is willing to bring a suit against him. But if he leaves behind him children who are fit to be citizens, let the guardians of orphans take care of them, just as they would of any other orphans, from the day on which their father is convicted. *
*There are many kinds of unbelievers, but two only for whom legislation is required; one the hypocritical sort, whose crime is deserving of death many times over, while the other needs only bonds and admonition. In like manner also the notion that the Gods take no thought of men produces two other sorts of crimes, and the notion that they may be propitiated produces two more. Assuming these divisions, let those who have been made what they are only from want of understanding, and not from malice or an evil nature, be placed by the judge in the House of Reformation, and ordered to suffer imprisonment during a period of not less than five years. And in the meantime let them have no intercourse with the other citizens, except with members of the nocturnal council, and with them let them converse with a view to the improvement of their soul’s health. And when the time of their imprisonment has expired, if any of them be of sound mind let him be restored to sane company, but if not, and if he be condemned a second time, let him be punished with death. As to that class of monstrous natures who not only believe that there are no Gods, or that they are negligent, or to be propitiated, but in contempt of mankind conjure the souls of the living and say that they can conjure the dead and promise to charm the Gods with sacrifices and prayers, and will utterly overthrow individuals and whole houses and states for the sake of money-let him who is guilty of any of these things be condemned by the court to be bound according to law in the prison which is in the centre of the land, and let no freeman ever approach him, but let him receive the rations of food appointed by the guardians of the law from the hands of the public slaves; and when he is dead let him be cast beyond the borders unburied, and if any freeman assist in burying him, let him pay the penalty of impiety to any one who is willing to bring a suit against him. But if he leaves behind him children who are fit to be citizens, let the guardians of orphans take care of them, just as they would of any other orphans, from the day on which their father is convicted. *
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Abba
Guest
Ha, ha, ha!
We have come a long ways from Plato. If only Plato knew then what we now know! He certainly knows it now.
We have a better policy now, handle them with love and pray to Our Lord to guide them to the Truth.
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