The Temptation

[JRKH]

First let me emphasize that I am not doubting my faith, but have a question regarding the Temptation in the Desert. It sort of relates to the mystery of the incarnation.

The three synoptic gospels all tell of Christ being led by “The Spirit” out into the desert to be tempted after the Baptism. Matthew, in particular, states it as “…led into the desrt…to be tempted…” He further quotes the devil as saying, "…If you are the Son of God…

I believe that the Church teaches that Jesus had full knowledge of who He was and what His mission was the whole of His life here.

Assuming I am correct in this, I would like to understand a couple of things.
Why would the devil say “IF” you are teh Son of God, since he would know full well that he was?
Why would there be a need for Jesus to “be tempted” before beginning His mission?

The sense I get from reading the Gospels, and I can’t explain it well, is that there seems to be something of a veil drawn over Jesus’ divine nature, even to himself.
The best analogy I can think of is like the Prince and the Pauper where the young prince changes places with the pauper. In that case the young prince knew who he was but was without all of the comforts and protections of his true rank. In Christ’s case, it was his “Rank” that was dimmed, while all of the “protections”, as in guidance and understandings etc. were left intact.
Thus it could be that the devil felt that he could trip up Jesus and Jesus, being true man, had to truly withstand those temptations.
To me this view gives me great thankfullness to Our God who, in his infinite wisdom sent His son, As A Human - to demonstrate what we as Humans are capable of if we have faith.

I know this might sound odd and even a bit heretical - I don’t mean it this way.
I would really appreciate others insights.

By the Way Posting links to articles is apprecaiated, but my time for reading etc is limited. So summerizing the gist of them is helpful to me.

Peace
James

 

[chenry]

This questions is similar to the one that I had a while ago. If Jesus was God, then why did He pray? Like you, I do not doubt my faith in God or the Trinity, but does that mean that Jesus was talking to Himself? And wouldn’t He know that He could not have another path other than the Cross?

What helped me to understand this, and what may help you to understand the Temptation in the Desert, is that Christ was fully human and fully divine. He truly does have two natures. When the devil was tempting him and when he prayed in the Garden, it was his human nature that the devil was appealing to and His human nature caused Him to pray.

This may be an awkward suggestion, but it may be worth studying the Nestorian heresy from 5th Century, which held that Jesus was two seperate persons, and that Mary was not the Mother of God but instead of only his Human person. As you can see, there is a slipperly slope with this heresy because what is to say which person died for our sins, the human or the divine?

God bless…

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I am not sure on this, but think that I read someplace that prayer is the internal communication between the members of the Trinity. When we pray we are allowed to join in that conversation.

I don’t think this is Church teaching, but it seems a useful speculation.

 

[Trishie]

Jesus knew who He was and revealed this even as a child of twelve. Luke 2:41-52

Now His parents went to Jerusalem every year at (C)the Feast of the Passover.
And when He became twelve, they went up there according to the custom of the Feast; and as they were returning, after spending the (D)full number of days, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. But His parents were unaware of it, but supposed Him to be in the caravan, and went a day’s journey; and they began looking for Him among their relatives and acquaintances. When they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem looking for Him. Then, after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
When they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You.”
And He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be about my Father’s business?”
But they did not understand the statement which He had made to them. And He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and He continued in subjection to them; and His mother treasured all these things in her heart.

Twelve-year-old Jesus knew He was Son of the eternal Father.

His human parents hadn’t told Him. They were puzzled at what He had said.

People often use that kind of ‘if’ statement that the devil used, “If you think you are so clever, why don’t you do it.” “If you are so powerful, why don’t you do this…or…that?”

 

[LilyM]

Firstly - Jesus had no need for a lot of things. He had no need to be born of a woman, no need to be circumcised or baptised, no need to eat and drink, no need to suffer and die, no need to leave us the Eucharist. Conceivably other ways could have been found to achieve most everything that He achieved with these things.

Except for one thing at least - He did them to teach US how to pray, to teach US the need for spiritual purification, to teach US the need to resist temptation, and one way to do so, to teach US the strength and depth of His love for us and to remind US physically of His promise that we would be joined to His body and that He would be with us always.

So He prayed to teach US how to pray as well.

As for the temptation in particular - Christ knew He was the Son of God and all that that entailed, and knew that Satan was an inferior creature. Satan, it seems, didn’t know exactly what strength that gave to Christ.

Notice that he says ‘IF you are the Son of God’ - playing on what he perceived to be Christ’s weakest point, His need to have others believe in Him, and the temptation (so Satan thought) that it must have been to produce all manner of wonders and miracles to make this task easier.

Jesus in His Godly wisdom knows better, as He reveals elsewhere - ‘if they do not believe Moses and the prophets, they will not believe even if one (namely Himself) should rise from the dead’. He knows miracles will not produce a sufficiently strong faith in the majority of people.

 

[JRKH]

Jesus knew who He was and revealed this even as a child of twelve. Luke 2:41-52

(snip)

Twelve-year-old Jesus knew He was Son of the eternal Father.

His human parents hadn’t told Him. They were puzzled at what He had said.

Thank you for your answer but this really doesn’t solve the problem. In fact it just adds to it.
Mary, as recorded in this same book, had been visited by an Angel and Told that She would be having the Son of God. So why would she be puzzled?
If, as you say, they were puzzled because they hadn’t told him then it is proof that, prior to the incident at teh temple, Jesus did NOT know who his “real” father was.
Do you see what I mean?

People often use that kind of ‘if’ statement that the devil used, “If you think you are so clever, why don’t you do it.” “If you are so powerful, why don’t you do this…or…that?”

This would be OK except that other demons that Jesus drove out of people DID know who He was. The writers record this in several places. If demons knew this, then certainly the Prince of Demons would know full well who He is and, if they Both knew (Jesus and the Devil) then the term “IF” is not appropriate.
I understand what you mean by people using this term in a sarcastic way, but when they do that they are doubting the other person to do or be what they say.
See What I mean?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

This questions is similar to the one that I had a while ago. If Jesus was God, then why did He pray? Like you, I do not doubt my faith in God or the Trinity, but does that mean that Jesus was talking to Himself? And wouldn’t He know that He could not have another path other than the Cross?

That too is an interesting question.

What helped me to understand this, and what may help you to understand the Temptation in the Desert, is that Christ was fully human and fully divine. He truly does have two natures. When the devil was tempting him and when he prayed in the Garden, it was his human nature that the devil was appealing to and His human nature caused Him to pray.

I am well aware of this and to an extent it helps, but not entirely.
There is no question in my mind of Jesus (man) being divinely concieved, and divinely guided by the Holy spirit of God. Nor do I doubt that the Human named Jesus is also the Second person of the Trinity - The Word. It is more a matter of trying to understand the complex relationship between these two natures.
There are just a number of places in the Gospels, where Jesus seems to not have the “Full Knowledge” that I would think is right for the “God-Man”.

This may be an awkward suggestion, but it may be worth studying the Nestorian heresy from 5th Century, which held that Jesus was two seperate persons, and that Mary was not the Mother of God but instead of only his Human person. As you can see, there is a slipperly slope with this heresy because what is to say which person died for our sins, the human or the divine?

God bless…

Well my thinking is nothing like that. I will admit that, during my time in the wilderness away from the Church, I entetained the idea of Jesus being born “human” and growing into the Messiah/Son-of-God. I rejected this as being totally impracticable as a solution to my questions.
That is why my thinking has evolved more along the lines of a “veiled” divinity during his early years, and up to after the “temptaion”. It is like God the Father, when sending “The Word” incarnate, sort of “turned down” or dimmed His divine nature while he was growing and learning what it was like to be a human Creature. Thus, as “Jesus advanced in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men”, (Luke 2:52) more of his divine nature and mission became known to him.
And so it was that, by the time he went to the desert to be tempted, he was nearly mature in spirit, (That is suspected with near certianty of his divine identity and mission). But not quite and thus the Devil in an attempt to derail the salvic mission tempted Jesus.

I don’t know if this is well explained but it’s the best I can do for now.

Peace
James

 

[SHW]

The sense I get from reading the Gospels, and I can’t explain it well, is that there seems to be something of a veil drawn over Jesus’ divine nature, even to himself.

Jesus always knew who He was. However, His power to act as Divinity was limited to whatever power His Father willed for Him for each situation during His life on earth.

John 5:30 “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.”

Hebrews 2:9-10 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. 10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”

James 1:12-14**“Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.** 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.”

Hebrews 4:15 “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.”

Hebrews 2:18 “For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”

We must imitate Jesus because He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. If we do, then we will inherit eternal life. Jesus in His human nature was perfected by suffering just as we are also.

1 Peter 5:8-10 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus,** after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you**.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[JRKH]

Jesus always knew who He was. However, His power to act as Divinity was limited to whatever power His Father willed for Him for each situation during His life on earth.

(Snip)

We must imitate Jesus because He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. If we do, then we will inherit eternal life. Jesus in His human nature was perfected by suffering just as we are also.

(Snip)

Pax,
SHW

Thanks SHW,
The quotes are helpful as well as your commentary. I especially like your observation that His divinity was limited by the Father’s will. It seems this way to me as well.
I also especially like your statement about how we must imitate Jesus. I think that too often we lose this by putting too much emphasis on Jesus ad God and not enough on Jesus as Brother. We Forget that part of Jesus mission here was to “Show us” the way home to the Father. After all He did promise the Apostles (and by extension us) that we would (could) do greater things (signs) than He did if we have faith.

Another aspect of this thought process (and I know I have no capacity to ever fully understand these things) is the idea that Jesus, The Word of God, came to return to us the “Spirit of God” that we lost through Adam’s sin. In this, Jesus was “filled with the Holy Spirit” to such an extent that He possesed it all. Thus it was that he said to the Apostles that unless He left them, The Father could not send the Holy Spirit to them.

From a human perspective, as long as Jesus was among us physically, we would look to Him and not directly to the Father through the Holy Spirit. Just as the disciples could not get past the idea of Jesus (the Messiah) setting up an earthly kingdom. I think of the “Road to Emmaus” when the two apostles were so downhearted becasue Jesus had died - Even they (Peter was one of them) could not see into the spiritual kingodm yet. It was only after Jesus physically left them and poured out the Holy Spirit into the world again that they (and we) are able to at least begin to understand.

So it appears in my thinking - That the Father, who wishes to redeem his fallen children, sends His Word (Jesus) to demonstrate through Jesus the power “Holy Spirit” of God. Then, once “The Word” has been sufficiently taught and “The Spirit” sufficiently demonstrated by Jesus, God called Jesus home - removed this incarnate Word from among us - And poured out His Spirit upon us. So now, if we are properly disposed to it, the combination of the Written and Living Word, guided by the Holy Spirit, and expressed and Lived through Holiness will lead us ever closer to God.

Does this make sense?

Peace
James

 

[SHW]

Thanks SHW,
The quotes are helpful as well as your commentary. I especially like your observation that His divinity was limited by the Father’s will. It seems this way to me as well.
I also especially like your statement about how we must imitate Jesus. I think that too often we lose this by putting too much emphasis on Jesus ad God and not enough on Jesus as Brother. We Forget that part of Jesus mission here was to “Show us” the way home to the Father. After all He did promise the Apostles (and by extension us) that we would (could) do greater things (signs) than He did if we have faith.

Another aspect of this thought process (and I know I have no capacity to ever fully understand these things) is the idea that Jesus, The Word of God, came to return to us the “Spirit of God” that we lost through Adam’s sin. In this, Jesus was “filled with the Holy Spirit” to such an extent that He possesed it all. Thus it was that he said to the Apostles that unless He left them, The Father could not send the Holy Spirit to them.

From a human perspective, as long as Jesus was among us physically, we would look to Him and not directly to the Father through the Holy Spirit. Just as the disciples could not get past the idea of Jesus (the Messiah) setting up an earthly kingdom. I think of the “Road to Emmaus” when the two apostles were so downhearted becasue Jesus had died - Even they (Peter was one of them) could not see into the spiritual kingodm yet. It was only after Jesus physically left them and poured out the Holy Spirit into the world again that they (and we) are able to at least begin to understand.

So it appears in my thinking - That the Father, who wishes to redeem his fallen children, sends His Word (Jesus) to demonstrate through Jesus the power “Holy Spirit” of God. Then, once “The Word” has been sufficiently taught and “The Spirit” sufficiently demonstrated by Jesus, God called Jesus home - removed this incarnate Word from among us - And poured out His Spirit upon us. So now, if we are properly disposed to it, the combination of the Written and Living Word, guided by the Holy Spirit, and expressed and Lived through Holiness will lead us ever closer to God.

Does this make sense?

Peace
James

Amen!

Pax,
SHW