The Trinitarian Question

[Scardinoz]

For ease of reference: answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100312091703AAMItox&r=w#EMx6C2S6WWRUIFbQVVdrFy9LlbWHiusWKBCE2xwm9p532F.5n6Qg

I came across an interesting question on Yahoo Questions earlier today. I browse there often looking for people looking for answers.

This person asked:

How can Trinitarians believe that God came down & died for us when God cannot die?
To pay the ransom sacrifice, Jesus had to give his life (die) on behalf of mankind.
So, Trinitarians, how can you reconcile that fact with the fact that God can’t die?

Thank you to those who reply respectfully

Most believers in the Trinity have been shouted down but some non-Trinitarians have actually posed questions.

It’s called NONSENSE! Trinitarians have to resort to the whole “dual nature” doctrine to “protect” the doctrine of the trinity! However after his resurrection Jesus CLEARLY made the following statement in John 20:17(NIV)

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

So since he had not yet returned to his Father, when his “human body” died where in the world did the “God” part of him go?

Like I said NONSENSE.

It seems like gnosticism is making a resurgence today in the form of Jehovah’s Witnesses and other non-Trinitarian sects. Some claim even to be “Arian Catholics”.

Since most non-Trinitarians dismiss the Apostolic Fathers and early Church as ‘heretics’, quoting them is frequently of little assistance. That said, what verses from scripture have you found to be helpful in explaining the Trinity?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

For ease of reference: answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100312091703AAMItox&r=w#EMx6C2S6WWRUIFbQVVdrFy9LlbWHiusWKBCE2xwm9p532F.5n6Qg

I came across an interesting question on Yahoo Questions earlier today. I browse there often looking for people looking for answers.

This person asked:

Most believers in the Trinity have been shouted down but some non-Trinitarians have actually posed questions.

It seems like gnosticism is making a resurgence today in the form of Jehovah’s Witnesses and other non-Trinitarian sects. Some claim even to be “Arian Catholics”.

Since most non-Trinitarians dismiss the Apostolic Fathers and early Church as ‘heretics’, quoting them is frequently of little assistance. That said, what verses from scripture have you found to be helpful in explaining the Trinity?

The Spirit of God (The Holy Spirit) is mentioned in several places like 1 Cor.2:11.

Christ make a clear statement of His Divinity in John 10:30.

 

[Cristian_B]

For ease of reference: answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100312091703AAMItox&r=w#EMx6C2S6WWRUIFbQVVdrFy9LlbWHiusWKBCE2xwm9p532F.5n6Qg

I came across an interesting question on Yahoo Questions earlier today. I browse there often looking for people looking for answers.

This person asked:

Most believers in the Trinity have been shouted down but some non-Trinitarians have actually posed questions.

It seems like gnosticism is making a resurgence today in the form of Jehovah’s Witnesses and other non-Trinitarian sects. Some claim even to be “Arian Catholics”.

Since most non-Trinitarians dismiss the Apostolic Fathers and early Church as ‘heretics’, quoting them is frequently of little assistance. That said, what verses from scripture have you found to be helpful in explaining the Trinity?

Who said God cannot die? If He didn’t die, then the whole Salvation process is ******** from God.

God can do whatever He wants, even die, or can’t He? He has immortality in the sense that death has no power over Him, not that he can never die. He can die and resurrect as many times as He wishes. This is what immortality means.

 

[JRKH]

If I may.

If one believes in the eternal soul and an eternal afterlife then neither can we die for we go on to our “just reward”. Our human body stops functioning our spirit goes on.

God simply did the same thing.

Peace
James

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Who said God cannot die? If He didn’t die, then the whole Salvation process is ******** from God.

God can do whatever He wants, even die, or can’t He? He has immortality in the sense that death has no power over Him, not that he can never die. He can die and resurrect as many times as He wishes. This is what immortality means.

God the second person of theTrinity, meaning His Divinity did not die. This is why the Second person of the Trinity had to take on a human nature to redeem mankind. His human body died, by separating his human soul from His human body, His Divinity remained united to both while they were separated.

 

[Bookcat]

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm#I

 

[tee_eff_em]

The questioner surely has a misunderstanding of what it means to die.

tee

 

[Poco]

Frank Sheed, in his book “Theology and Sanity”, answers this quite well. I’m sorry I can’t post the entire chapter/section here.

Br. Rich seems to have given a good “short answer”!

God the second person of theTrinity, meaning His Divinity did not die. This is why the Second person of the Trinity had to take on a human nature to redeem mankind. His human body died, by separating his human soul from His human body, His Divinity remained united to both while they were separated.

It was simply the “human nature” of the Son which died. God did not die!

 

[quasimodo]

The questioner surely has a misunderstanding of what it means to die.

tee

We have a winner. This is the issue in its entirety. Christians do not consider death to be an end to existence.

 

[Joe_5859]

Catholic answers has several tracts that may help:

http://www.catholic.com/library/god_christ.asp

All these make prodigious use of the Fathers (which you said they would just dismiss), but the intros to the tracts contain Scripture citations you might want to take a look at.

 

[tee_eff_em]

It was simply the “human nature” of the Son which died. God did not die!

Natures don’t die – People (or, if you will: persons) die.

God died on the cross.

To say anything else is to deny the divinity of Christ.

tee

 

[JVD]

Don’t be surprised if a lot of those putting down Christians on the yahoo site were Muslim since they also claim that Christians are infidel polytheists for believing in The Trinity.

Although Jesus’ human body stopped functioning from its wounds and the spirit/soul was seperated from it (the definition of death) God did not die since His spirit lived. We are all immortal and can only die 1 or 2 times. Christians experience this separation one single time. But those not saved experience 2 deaths - physical death and a spiritual death that still has a metaphysical experience but is bereft of supernatural virtue and is a living sort of death in hell.

Also, many do not realize it but Jesus body although physically dead never knew corruption since His divinity preserved it from corruption even as his body was severely wounded and disfigured in the flesh. The flesh did not decay in any way - thus reinforcing the Catholic teaching of the sacredness of the body. Since we are all immortal both damned and elect will all be restored to a body. The elect get a glorified/transfigured body that can never know corruption (like Christ’s transfigured). The damned get a restored perfected body so that soul can be punished both in spirit and in the flesh. Many of us also believe that damned soul’s body will then immediately when cast into hell take the form of its underlying corrupt soul in proportion to its wickedness - all monstrous, vile and hideous to look upon).

James

 

[Joe_5859]

Natures don’t die – People (or, if you will: persons) die.

God died on the cross.

To say anything else is to deny the divinity of Christ.

tee

An important point!

I believe there were several ecumencial councils that fleshed that out.

 

[Joe_5859]

Although Jesus’ human body stopped functioning from its wounds and the spirit/soul was seperated from it (the definition of death) God did not die since His spirit lived.

I’d be careful how you phrase this. I think the Council of Ephesus would disagree.

Jesus did die on the cross. And because of the hypostatic union, we can also say “God died on the cross.” It’s all thanks to the theological concept called the communication of idioms.

 

[JVD]

I’d be careful how you phrase this. I think the Council of Ephesus would disagree.

Jesus did die on the cross. And because of the hypostatic union, we can also say “God died on the cross.” It’s all thanks to the theological concept called the communication of idioms.

Thanks for the insights. I like that we have a formalized list of idioms. That’s new to me.

I think I am still OK in the way I expressed it.

Your corrective statement is speaking in the context of Jesus which refers to his dual nature. It is permissible therefor to say that “Jesus died” since it means his human nature died but does not mean that His divine nature also died since that is a contradiction of divinity and convention (but precisely why our anti-trinitarian critics are all upset since they don’t understand the linga franca).

James

 

[Joe_5859]

Your corrective statement is speaking in the context of Jesus which refers to his dual nature. It is permissible therefor to say that “Jesus died” since it means his human nature died but does not mean that His divine nature also died since that is a contradiction of divinity and convention (but precisely why our anti-trinitarian critics are all upset since they don’t understand the linga franca).

Thank you for the clarification. I think you do touch on something important to keep in mind. We would definitely not say that God in his divinity died on the cross. But because of the hypostatic union, the intimate union between Jesus’ human and divine natures, we can still say that God died on the Cross.

It’s the same reason that we can say that Mary is the Theotokos, the Mother of God. She is not the Mother of God in his divinity, but she is still the Mother of God because she is the Mother of Jesus and Jesus is God.