The Trinity

  • Thread starter Thread starter St.Ambrose
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

St.Ambrose

Guest
I’ve heard the Trinity explained as 3 separate persons while sharing the same nature (that being God).

However, this can’t be adequate as there is nothing mysterious about that. I mean there are 5 separate people in my family yet we all share human nature and there’s nothing mysterious about that. Yet all through church history it’s been said that the Trinity is a mystery.

So is the common explanation wrong? If so, how?
 
St. Ambrose:
I’ve heard the Trinity explained as 3 separate persons while sharing the same nature (that being God).

However, this can’t be adequate as there is nothing mysterious about that. I mean there are 5 separate people in my family yet we all share human nature and there’s nothing mysterious about that. Yet all through church history it’s been said that the Trinity is a mystery.

So is the common explanation wrong? If so, how?
You and your family members have a nature in common, but you do not all share one nature.

That point aside, your definition is off. God is one Being who is three Persons. He is not three separate persons who share a common nature.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
The use of “person” in this context is actually how the mormons view the three persons in God as a trinity. And they agree that in this sense, it is no mystery.

Christians, on the other hand, dodges a bunch of arrows shot by mormons have a different sense of the meaning “person” here.

Although as you suggest, the members of the trinity are independent and their own entity, the mystery occurs in the degree to which they share unity. For example, the trinity shares:

One will.
One mindset.
One set of knowledge.
One divinity.
One power.

In the example of the family, none of the individual members share any of these qualities.

It is true, however, that the family was modeled after the trinitarian image. Part of man being created in God’s image. So your observation is somewhat correct. But not even the human family can share the unity of truly being one that God can. The degree of oneness he possesses is the mystery, not how he can be three. We can never understand how truly singular he is, because our model being family, or other things, cannot comprehend it.

This is not to say God is not one singular being. It is to say coming from the angle of three, we can’t grasp the one, just as coming from the angle of one, we can’t grasp the three.
 
In your family, there are five human persons, each member of your family is human, each of them is a different person from the others, and there are five humans in your family. This is pretty straight-forward. (1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5)

In God, there are three divine persons, each divine person is God (the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God), each divine person is different from the other (The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father), but there are not three Gods but only one God. This is a bit mysterious. (1 + 1 + 1 = 1)
 
As the catechism states, “The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire” - they are by nature (essence, substance) one God. The divine persons, however, are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds”. It is indeed a great mystery that only our finite minds can see as if through an opaque glass. Two great explanations of the Trinity can be found in “Theology and Sanity” by Frank Sheed and “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis.
 
I think of it as purely a distinction of internal relationship, but in such a way that can only be approached, but never attained, by human intellect.

My personal, and highly imperfect, illustration is that of the brain, perception, and cognition combining to make the human mind. There is the brain, which is fundamentally necessary for the other two processes. Without the crude matter of the brain, the others are impossible. The perception is the senses, which come from the brain but are not material; they are of the brain, but they are not the brain. Cognition is the process by which the perception becomes coherent thought; the senses that are created by the brain become ordered into thoughts, words, images, ect. This cognition is intimately tied to perception and the brain, but it is unique in that it is a rearranging of information, a process that includes will and personal development.

Now each of these processes is fundamental to the human mind. The brain is the root of all mental processes, but without cognition it is merely a lump of fat, and without awareness it is blind even to itself and can not even form cognition. At the same time, however, the human mind IS the brain, because all mental processes can be traced to material reactions and movements within the brain. The human mind is also absolutely perception, however, because without at least being able to perceive the self, the brain can not function in a human way, and becomes random firings of electrical pulses and chemicals with no development from them. Our senses define who we are, our place in the world, and are the fundamental building blocks of our personalities;our senses are to our cognition what our material cells are to our perception. Cognition is the capstone, and it is also absolutely the human mind, because without cognition the brain and the perception are nothing but a lump of fat that records impulses like a microphone and hard drive, or a paper and pen. A human mind is because it can order its perceptions in its own way, it can will that data into forms that are unique, and can send that data back out into the world, or at least reflect upon it further to build new forms.

The interactions between these three things can be fuzzy, and the exact nature of each seems to encompass the others when taken individually (for example the crude matter can be taken to be all that there is to the brain, with cognition and senses being illusions, or visa versa). They are known purely by there relationship to one another: the senses perceive the fatty tissue which we call a brain, and our cognition recognizes it as the source of our senses, and the brain processes all of this information continuously. We perceive because of our brain, we know it’s a brain because of cognition, and we have cognition because of our perception. We can infer the existance of one because of the relationship between the two others, yet even our own human mind is a mystery to us, and the farthest reaches of understanding forever removed from us. After all, if we were to solve all of the mysteries of the crude matter of the brain, we would still be limited by our perception of the brain, and left with the possibility that the brain was merely an invention of our cognition as we float as bodiless entities communicating telepathically in a void.

Far from perfect, I know, but I think it serves to illustrate how each Person of the Trinity can be fully God, yet have their own unique qualities by virtue of their relationships to eachother.
 
i’ve always thought that 1X1X1=1 kind of sums it up. 🙂

but seriously, the mystery lies in how a church that worships the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three persons, can claim to be a monotheistic religion. Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One! proclaims the Old Testament book of Deuteronomy. and we christians agree. yet, Jesus is God. the Holy Spirit is God. the Father is God.

the concept of the Trinity, and the mystery, result from our trying to make sense of how Jesus came to us and walked with us, claimed to be the ‘I AM’ who was before abraham, and forgave sins, yet prayed to the Father in heaven, and sent us the Holy Spirit. how can that be? it makes no sense, if you take it all apart. it’s a mystery.

hence st augustine’s stroll down the beach that day…
 
Once again jeffreedy, I share and appreciate your insights.

First of all, I don’t have the answer of course, but I might be able to help.

I have an expression: The Father and the Son is the question and the Holy Spirit is the answer.

We are taught that each person is fully God. I think that each person is God because of the indivisible union with the other persons.

For example, the Son is God by virtue of His union with Father and the Holy Spirit .

I think what can confuse people is that we think of God as a concept that applies to each of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

However, I think that there is no separate concept of God apart from the trinity. It is the trinity that makse God who He is in being.

Consider a red, green, and blue lens. The three lenses are placed together and the light is seen as white. Now, it doesn’t matter which lens you look through, you still see the white light only. Yet the light is white because of the union of the three lenses, not that each individual lens is white light apart from union with the other two.

I think our minds try to pin the understanding down based on our existing concepts. I think what we have to do is simply see the trinity as a separate concept.

Is it possible that the union of the three persons is an aspect of God’s nature? This may be in addition to the concept that the three person’s share one nature.

In other word’s someone might ask, what is the nature that the three person’s share? Part of the answer might be: the nature that the three share is to be three!

See what I am saying?
 
i see what you’re saying, and i agree with you. i’m afraid, though, that anyone who didn’t believe in the trinity would think that we’re engaging in extensive sophistry to cover up the ‘fact’ that the trinity is a contradiction in terms.

one thing, to kind of build on what you said, greg, is that the church teaches that Jesus has existed for all time, He didn’t come into existence when He was incarnated. and the Holy Spirit has existed for all time. (‘for all time’ being our way of trying to say ‘for eternity’. of course, i don’t mean there is TIME outside of the space/time continuum, which God created thru Jesus). the love that the Father and the Son share produce the Holy Spirit, and this relationship, this love, and the subsequent ‘production’ of the Holy Spirit is eternal, has always been.

there. now you see why it’s a mystery? 🙂
 
I’ll paraphrase the Athanasian Creed, to show that while the description of the Blessed trinity is a good description, the MYSTERY still remains.
(Our brains just can’t handle the infinite.)

The Father is 100% The One True God.

The Son is 100% The One True God.

The Spirit is 100% The One True God.

Not that The Blessed Trinity is 300%, for He is 100% The One True God.
 
Todd Easton:
In your family, there are five human persons, each member of your family is human, each of them is a different person from the others, and there are five humans in your family. This is pretty straight-forward. (1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5)

In God, there are three divine persons, each divine person is God (the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God), each divine person is different from the other (The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father), but there are not three Gods but only one God. This is a bit mysterious. (1 + 1 + 1 = 1)
I am reminded of how one lay apologist defended the teaching of the Trinity by saying that it should not be viewed as 1 + 1 + 1 but rather we should think of the trinity as 1 X 1 X 1.

1 + 1 + 1 is how anti-trinitarians view this teaching, that since there are three persons, there are three “separate” persons and hence three Gods. Trinitarians view it instead as 1 X 1 X 1 = 1, that though there are three divine persons, there is one and only one God.

Gerry
 
sorry. i wish we could go back and edit previous posts. i’d change mine so you could say it first… 🙂
 
Funny, a couple weeks back I had a dream, it was about the Trinity, and of who Jesus is as it pertains to the Trinity. Jesus is God who became man, as Moses had to remove his sandals and kneel when standing on Holy ground when God spoke to Moses, so was the body and soul of the Woman pure and Immaculate whose woumb nurtured and bore God the man. Just as Jesus told his apostles that when they would be persecuted and arrested and having to answer for their actions, He would speak for them, and as He explained more than once that He and the Father are one, and if you have seen Him you have seen the Father. In saying all that, mystery is pretty much solved, yet I will never fully understand God’s love for us, for as I look out in the sky at times I wonder how the God who created the sun moon and everything that is, could suffer so for us as a man.

Blessed is the name of Jesus forever
 
40.png
jeffreedy789:
i see what you’re saying, and i agree with you. i’m afraid, though, that anyone who didn’t believe in the trinity would think that we’re engaging in extensive sophistry to cover up the ‘fact’ that the trinity is a contradiction in terms.
It would seem so. Yet in truth, the fact of the Trinity is the blueprint for all creation. It is not a contradiction in terms, but the contadiction of sin. By original sin, we are so wound up in our own agendas, with the juice of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil practically dripping off of our chins, that we cannot possibly see that. I do not mean to espouse pantheism, or anything remotely like that. I mean to say that we are called to live a perfect unity that we, in the imperfection of sin, cannot even imagine–to act our nature, which is to be the image and likeness of God! Until we let go of our own will and concept of “good” and embrace the Will of God and the reality of God, only the life and cross of Jesus can even give us an inkling of what that really means. The doctrine of the Trinity is not a curiosity. It is the whole ball of wax. How I long to someday know it.

The word “mystery” doesn’t mean something you can’t understand, but something you can know fully only by experience and not via theory. So it is with the mystery of the Trinity. Live it, or don’t get it, those are the only two options. I am convinced of that. How I wish I could live it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top