The Two Swords of Peter

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ron_Conte
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sir_Knight said:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church was written and approved by Pope John Paul II and it represents the OFFICIAL teaching of the Catholic Church – it says so right there in the introduction … and it CLEARLY states that “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.” … THAT is OFFICIAL Church teaching.

Doesn’t scripture tell us that we are to judge a tree by the fruit that it produces? Given the fact that you came to the wrong conclusion regarding the above teaching, what does it imply about your other conclusions?
Click to expand...
I completely agree with you Sir Knight.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church certainly takes precedence over a 14th century papal bull (which is not, on its face, an infallible document). What should also be considered, is the fact that Boniface VIII, whatever good qualities he may have possessed, made certain temporal claims for the authority of the Papacy vastly surpassing anything which had been made prior to his Pontificate – or since.

Honestly, citing Boniface VIII to defend a claim regarding temporal authority is a bit like citing Alexander Borgia to defend a claim regarding sexual morality! 😃
 
The Catechism is non-infallible, but as I said, the Catechism is merely explaining that the Church includes more persons than merely Her visible members.

The teachings in a Papal Bull do not decrease in authority as time passes.

The teaching that outside the Church, there is no salvation is also taught by St. Cyprian.

The Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802) infallibly taught as an article of faith: “There is indeed one universal church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

The Council of Florence (Decretum pro Jacobitis, DS 1351) infallibly taught the same doctrine.

Vatican II taught the same: “This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation.”

But as the quote in the post above from Pope John Paul II explains, this does not mean that only the visible members of the Church are saved; many can be saved by being joined to the Church in a mystical manner.
 
Then I suggest that you contact the Vatican and point out to them that OFFICIAL Church teaching as outlined in the CCC is in error. I’m sure that they will be most interested in hearing this.
Ron_Conte said:
But as the quote in the post above from Pope John Paul II explains, this does not mean that only the visible members of the Church are saved; many can be saved by being joined to the Church in a mystical manner.
Click to expand...
So, you have just NEGATED everything that you just said above indicating that salvation IS possible for those, who through no fault of their own, have not been properly exposed to Catholic teaching – which is what you were arguing AGAINST in this entire thread. :rolleyes:
 
There is no conflict between what the Catechism teaches and what the Council of Florence, the Fourth Council of the Lateran, Unam Sanctam, and St. Cyprian taught.

Belonging to the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, however implicitly and indeed mysteriously, is an essential condition for salvation.
 
Actually, the bold text in my post above is a quote from that post. So, it is exactly what I said before.
 
Now you are starting to back peddle. The term “church”, as used in scripture, refers to a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist and not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence. I refer you to Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 where Paul refers to the Church as the “body” of Christ – not the “soul” of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.
 
Sir_Knight said:
Now you are starting to back peddle. The term “church”, as used in scripture, refers to a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist and not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence. I refer you to Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 where Paul refers to the Church as the “body” of Christ – not the “soul” of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.
Click to expand...
Wow. This is an old argument, in more ways than one.

The Church teaches that there is a Visible Body and a Mystical Body. If an individual person, by no fault of his own, does not come to enter the VISIBLE Body of the one, true, holy and apostolic Church during his lifetime, then it is possible that he can become a member of the Mystical Body, responding to the actual grace that God gives Him. It is possible, but the Church warns that we should not see it as probable. The only VISIBLE CHURCH is the Catholic Church, and that is dogma. The popes and magesterium never have more authority than what is given to them by God* (*He who does not change nor get a new idea.)

So Ron is not “back peddling” if you mean that he is going back on what he said before. He didn’t come out and say every part of what we believe, but I think he has stated and restated the fact that the Church recognizes that there is a Visible Body of the Church, but the term the Church uses for those who, whether they are in the Visible Body or not, but would ascribe to all the dogmas of the Church as they come from God had they known them, as in the Mystical Body. Not all those in the Mystical Body are necessarily Catholic, but the Church says that all in the Visible Body (the one true and only visible Church) are Catholic, where the Sacraments for salvation exist. Also, not all those in the Visible Body are necessarily in the Mystical Body, for instance, if one is a heretic formally.
 
Sir_Knight said:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church was written and approved by Pope John Paul II and it represents the OFFICIAL teaching of the Catholic Church – it says so right there in the introduction … and it CLEARLY states that “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.” … THAT is OFFICIAL Church teaching.

Doesn’t scripture tell us that we are to judge a tree by the fruit that it produces? Given the fact that you came to the wrong conclusion regarding the above teaching, what does it imply about your other conclusions?
Click to expand...
Sir Knight- the Church does officially teach that there is no salvation outside the Church. What you quote is simply saying that those that don’t appear to be “inside” the Church, really are because they have lived a good life in accord to the natural laws written on their hearts, regardless of not having heard the Gospel of Jesus. So, simply, they are “inside” the Church which means they are not “outside” of it. Christ said he was the only Way to the Father. Not in the Church, no salvation.

Pax Christi.
 
In the sensus plenior, swords must represent the same thing everywhere they occur. Therefore the sword, in this method of interpretation, represents the word of God. They were two two-edged swords reminiscent of the fiery swords held by the angels guarding the way back to the garden of Eden.

The four edges represent the four voices of God as Prophet, Priest, King and Judge.
The two swords ‘are sufficient’ as there are no other ‘voices’ of God.

It is of particular note that in telling Peter to put the sword away, he tells him that he must fulfill the Word. Prior to the cross, the Word was hidden in parables so that they would not believe. He had to die alone and desolate according to the scriptures. So the sword/word was concealed until after the cross.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top