The unsuitability of certain Traditionalist voices

[Argonautica]

I’ve just been led to abandon membership of a board calling itself traditionalist Catholic. I was amazed and later appalled that the sites are loaded with freakish discussions about laying the law down about women’s clothing at mass which gave way to crudely blasphemous examples being published involving saints ! There was an unhealthy tone virtually around every corner. Worse , this board has members who are declared fascists or IRA sympathisers. The sites are laced with symbols and quotations openly proving such and these people seem to think they can savage the responses of other people with the most lewd and violent rhetoric I have seen.I am equally disheartened that these people do not know the difference between loving Our Lady and the Marian excess that is now ruining and dividing the Church. Politics of this kind is just not welcome in Catholic circles and the IRA no longer exists. These people are living in a dream which is a nightmare for most other believers. I hope I find something better here.

 

[reggieM]

It’s best to stay away from such places. Many of the members mean well and have been hurt by bad teaching or example. So, they adopt extreme and hostile positions which are supposed to show strength but are actually very fragile. I like how you said that they’re living a dream which is really a nightmare.
I hope you will find more fruitful discussions here on CAF.

 

[CDNowak]

I’ve just been led to abandon membership of a board calling itself traditionalist Catholic. I was amazed and later appalled that the sites are loaded with freakish discussions about laying the law down about women’s clothing at mass which gave way to crudely blasphemous examples being published involving saints ! There was an unhealthy tone virtually around every corner. Worse , this board has members who are declared fascists or IRA sympathisers. The sites are laced with symbols and quotations openly proving such and these people seem to think they can savage the responses of other people with the most lewd and violent rhetoric I have seen.I am equally disheartened that these people do not know the difference between loving Our Lady and the Marian excess that is now ruining and dividing the Church.** Politics of this kind is just not welcome in Catholic circles and the IRA no longer exists.** These people are living in a dream which is a nightmare for most other believers. I hope I find something better here.

The IRA may not exist, but its remnant has embraced the political process (see:Sinn Fein), or taken on other names (pIRA,rIRA,etc). While the tactics of the IRA may be wrong, their political stand (that is, Home Rule) is very much within the realm of political debate (both in N. Ireland where it continues to fluctuate, here in the States with a rebirth of federalism, and around the world).

As for Home Rule though, I agree with Chesterton: “You believe in Home Rule for Ireland;** I believe in Home Rule for homes**… It would be better if every father COULD kill his son, as with the old Romans; it would be better, because nobody would be killed. Let’s issue a Declaration of Independence from Beacon House. We could grow enough greens in that garden to support us, and when the tax-collector comes let’s tell him we’re self-supporting, and play on him with the hose…. Well, perhaps, as you say, we couldn’t very well have a hose, as that comes from the main; but we could sink a well in this chalk, and a lot could be done with water-jugs…. Let this really be Beacon House. Let’s light a bonfire of independence on the roof, and see house after house answering it across the valley of the Thames! Let us begin the League of the Free Families! Away with Local Government! A fig for Local Patriotism! Let every house be a sovereign state as this is, and judge its own children by its own law, as we do by the Court of Beacon. Let us cut the painter, and begin to be happy together, as if we were on a desert island.”

 

[Onegin]

.I am equally disheartened that these people do not know the difference between loving Our Lady and the Marian excess that is now ruining and dividing the Church.

I am curious to know what you mean by “Marian excess.” Can you explain?

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

I am curious to know what you mean by “Marian excess.” Can you explain?

Me too Onegin. I am also curious as to how Argonautica “was amazed and later appalled that the sites are loaded with freakish discussions about laying the law down about women’s clothing at mass”. Ordinarily, I am appalled with how women dress to go to Mass a lot more than with any “freakish discussions” in response.

 

[Layman]

The internet allows anyone to publish whatever they want. That’s its strength and its weakness.

Just don’t go to those sites. Problem solved.

 

[SunnaB16]

Me too Onegin.

Not knowing the site to which Argonautica is referring, i can only guess what he means, but:
“Marian exccess” might refer to all of the unapproved, or condemned outright, alleged Marian apparitions or alleged “locutions” about Mary: eg

The heresy from*** Dozule***, France, which claims that ***she doesnt have a biological father: ie she was conceived in the same manner as her Son.*** According to the "locutionist": until this "new ***public*** Revelation" is added to the Dogma of The Immaculate Conception, the Church is disobeying Heaven! Its obvious who`s the real source of that claim.

Medjugorje…with the web of deception and contempt for the bishop.

Naju, South Korea, where the “visionary” and her followers have been excommunicated.

Etc. Ad infinitum.

i know an over-the-top Marian type who says that Mary is an extension of The Blessed Trinity … what`s that supposed to mean!!! Deified? Like Dozule?

A habit which bugs me is to use upper case pronoun beginnings for our Lady: eg “She”, “Her”.
One such lot of prose that i came across used LOWER CASE for God: “he”, “him”, “his”!
These days, sadly, hardly any literature uses upper case for God.

The worst fears of some non-Catholics would (to them) be confirmed.

Mary-worship is a reality for some, and dangerously close for a lot of others.

Sorry if i grabbed the bull by the tail!

I am also curious as to how mArgonautica “was amazed and later appalled that the sites are loaded with freakish discussions about laying the law down about women’s clothing at mass”. Ordinarily, I am appalled with how women dress to go to Mass a lot more than with any “freakish discussions” in response.

Yep.
Compare them with the beautifully dressed and feminine-looking Jehovahs Witness women who come door knocking......theyre a credit to their organisation.
Extreme Traditionalist groups can be a bit heavy-handed, though: dresses down to the ankles, mandatory mantilla wearing…personally, i reckon the hair covering makes them look even more lady-like, but…
No pants, of course. Dresses do look more modest and feminine, but, should they be mandatory? Dunno!
i wouldn`t wear a short sleeved shirt to Mass, and feel that women look more modest with their arms covered, but should they be forced to have long sleeves? Again: Dunno!

The whole thing`s probably academic for the folks who are in (full) communion with Rome, because the above probably applies only to the SSPX and co.

The Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter (the only TLM outfit ive experienced) doesnt have “standards”, but the women and girls who attend the TLM have a sense of decency in any case. Its obvious! Thered be peer pressure in the right sense.

As a bloke, i feel awkward making comments.

Sorry again, fellas, if this isn`t what Argonautica meant.

 

[Onegin]

Not knowing the site to which Argonautica is referring, i can only guess what he means, but:
“Marian exccess” might refer to all of the unapproved, or condemned outright, alleged Marian apparitions or alleged “locutions” about Mary: eg

The heresy from*** Dozule***, France, which claims that ***she doesnt have a biological father: ie she was conceived in the same manner as her Son.*** According to the "locutionist": until this "new ***public*** Revelation" is added to the Dogma of The Immaculate Conception, the Church is disobeying Heaven! Its obvious who`s the real source of that claim.

Medjugorje…with the web of deception and contempt for the bishop.

Naju, South Korea, where the “visionary” and her followers have been excommunicated.

Etc. Ad infinitum.

i know an over-the-top Marian type who says that Mary is an extension of The Blessed Trinity … what`s that supposed to mean!!! Deified? Like Dozule?

A habit which bugs me is to use upper case pronoun beginnings for our Lady: eg “She”, “Her”.
One such lot of prose that i came across used LOWER CASE for God: “he”, “him”, “his”!

The worst fears of some non-Catholics would (to them) be confirmed.

Mary-worship is a reality for some, and dangerously close for a lot of others.

Sorry if i grabbed the bull by the tail!

Yep.
Compare them with the beautifully dressed and feminine-looking Jehovahs Witness women who come door knocking......theyre a credit to their organisation.
Extreme Traditionalist groups can be a bit heavy-handed, though: dresses down to the ankles, mandatory mantilla wearing…personally, i reckon the hair covering makes them look even more lady-like, but…
No pants, of course. Dresses do look more modest and feminine, but, should they be mandatory? Dunno!
i wouldn`t wear a short sleeved shirt to Mass, and feel that women look more modest with their arms covered, but should they be forced to have long sleeves? Again: Dunno!

The whole thing`s probably academic for the folks who are in (full) union with Rome, because the above probably applies only to the SSPX and co.

The Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter (the only TLM outfit ive experienced) doesnt have “standards”, but the women and girls who attend the TLM have a sense of decency in any case. Its obvious! Thered be peer pressure in the right sense.

As a bloke, i feel awkward making comments.

Sorry again, fellas, if this isn`t what Argonautica meant.

Hmm, yeah I’ve heard of Medjugorje but at the diocesan cathedral a LOT of the parishoners are really “into” it as a devotanal thing I think. I remember going on a trip with some parish members and a lot of people brought photos/books about Medjugorje. I don’t know too much about it personally, I’m afraid. Fatima interests me more from what I’ve read.

As for the standards of dress, I can say from firsthand that the SSPX (at least my experiences) have not been heavy handed. There’s a little sign outside the chapel that says you should dress modestly (no tank tops, shorts, etc) and they ask that women cover their heads out of respect for the particular Biblical exhortation to do so. Beyond that, however, there is no mandate to wear a particular length skirt, although in the summer you will see all variations. In the winter (where it gets quite cold) it makes sense to wear longer skirts.

And I know of families in SSPX chapels where the women do wear pants or jeans on a daily basis, just not in Mass out of respect. I agree that the FSSP churches are more lenient in this respect, largely because (in my opinion) they are usually located in churches where both forms of the Mass are said, so you get more “crossover” attendees from week to week. Also, it is unlikely in an FSSP church that the Priest would approach you if you regularly attended Mass and were dressed inappropriately. Also, there is no sign outside church, so headcovering is more or less on a personal basis and the turnout seemed (when I visited) to be about 60/40 in favour of wearing one.

Hope this helps explain things.

 

[SunnaB16]

Hmm, yeah I’ve heard of Medjugorje but at the diocesan cathedral a LOT of the parishoners are really “into” it as a devotanal thing I think. I remember going on a trip with some parish members and a lot of people brought photos/books about Medjugorje. ***I don’t know too much about it personally, I’m afraid. Fatima interests me more from what I’ve read. ***

Its safer to stay that way! im in the unfortunate position of being on more or less friendly terms with a lot of Medjugorje promoters. Ditto with a promoter of Dozule! Enough said.

Hope this helps explain things.

Thanks for that. You were quick!

There may be some variation among SSPX congregations, though. At one near Sydney (Australia), hair covering is mandatory. Someone told me that, anyway…but that was 10 years ago.

Thank Goodness the*** average ***TLM attendee (of either sex) has a better sense of dress standards than the average Novus Ordo attendee. With the combination of dress, reverence, and the rest, theres a sort of HIGHEST COMMON DENOMINATOR. You can feel it. Or am i mad? What do you think? One thing i can say is that during the third or fourth Solemn High Mass (celebrated every Sunday), there was the thought that i could feel the Churchs heartbeat: strong and healthy. Sublime!

Maybe the SSPV and similar are the culprits Argonautica meant. Anyway, where`d the beggar disappear to?

 

[joedecarlo]

Me too Onegin. I am also curious as to how Argonautica “was amazed and later appalled that the sites are loaded with freakish discussions about laying the law down about women’s clothing at mass”. Ordinarily, I am appalled with how women dress to go to Mass a lot more than with any “freakish discussions” in response.

We have a dress code at our Traditional Catholic Church.If you are not dressed according to
the dress code which stated in the church bulletin you will be turned away.

 

[MarkThompson]

We have a dress code at our Traditional Catholic Church.If you are not dressed according to
the dress code which stated in the church bulletin you will be turned away.

The poor and homeless aren’t welcome among you, then?

 

[SunnaB16]

The poor and homeless aren’t welcome among you, then?

It sounds a bit extreme, doesn`t it!

If someone turned up at our TLM church grossly inappropriately dressed, she (or he) would pretty soon be shamed into dressing more appropriately or going elsewhere purely by the example of the others. There`d be no need to literally eject (?!) anyone.

Anybody genuinely in need would only have to say so to one of the priests, and the word would spread, and help would be forthcoming. i saw it happen to a single mother with a young daughter. The two of em have made friends with a good number of folks, as well. Theyre a generous lot.

 

[joedecarlo]

The poor and homeless aren’t welcome among you, then?

The poor and homeless are welcome. the pastor doesn’t want midriffs showing or shorts worn to mass. I would like to see the % of homeless that go to mass.

 

[joedecarlo]

It sounds a bit extreme, doesn`t it!

If someone turned up at our TLM church grossly inappropriately dressed, she (or he) would pretty soon be shamed into dressing more appropriately or going elsewhere purely by the example of the others. There`d be no need to literally eject (?!) anyone.

Anybody genuinely in need would only have to say so to one of the priests, and the word would spread, and help would be forthcoming. i saw it happen to a single mother with a young daughter. The two of em have made friends with a good number of folks, as well. Theyre a generous lot.

In Italy, you can’t go into a church, at least in Rome, with your shoulders not covered or wearing shorts.