The Virgin Mary

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Hi!
I am an ex Protestant and I love being a Catholic. However, since converting (1989), I have been unable fully to come to terms with the Virginity of the Blessed Virgin.
My problem is entirely Biblical.
Gal 1 19
Mark 6.3
Mat 12.46f
Obviously, the birth narratives are (to me at any rate) easily believeable. These three texts, however, suggest that Jesus’ Mother had a fairly large family afterwards. So “Mary Ever Virgin” is a hard thing to say sincerely.
Help!
 
Mike Stallard:
Hi!
I am an ex Protestant and I love being a Catholic. However, since converting (1989), I have been unable fully to come to terms with the Virginity of the Blessed Virgin.
My problem is entirely Biblical.
Gal 1 19
Mark 6.3
Mat 12.46f
Obviously, the birth narratives are (to me at any rate) easily believeable. These three texts, however, suggest that Jesus’ Mother had a fairly large family afterwards. So “Mary Ever Virgin” is a hard thing to say sincerely.
Help!
Catholic and non-Catholic students of Scripture are not agreed as to who were the parents of James and Joseph and Simon and Jude. Most Catholic scholars believe that they are the cousins of the Lord, their mother being Mary, the wife of Cleophas (Clopas). They come to this conclusion by comparison with other texts, i.e., John 19:25.

We also know that in the Old Testament the word “brother” or “brethren” was not reserved for blood brothers but for other relatives also. It was used:
  1. FOR ALL RELATIVES.
Genesis 29:15: “And Laban said unto Jacob, ‘Because thou art my brother, should thou, therefore, serve me for naught’.”

We know that Jacob was the nephew of Laban.
  1. KINSMEN.
Genesis 13:8: “Abram therefore said to Lot . . . ‘Let therefore there be no quarreling between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen for we are all brethren’.”
  1. ALSO FOR NIECES.
Genesis 12:13.

So also in everyday use today we call our preacher brother and the preacher calls us brother. But we are not brothers. In our union halls we salute each other by the title “brother.” In our lodges the same is true.

In this particular text if Simon and Jude and James and Joseph were cousins, as they probably were, they could not be CALLED “cousin” for there was no word in Aramaic for cousin. If we suppose that these were blood brothers we will have to admit they were born AFTER Christ – since no one today questions the virginity of Mary PRIOR to the birth of Christ.

But in John 7:3, 4 and also in Mark 3:21 we see these “brothers” rebuking our Lord. Now it was unthinkable among Jews for a younger brother to take such a role. Still further, in the story of the crucifixion in John 19, we read that the dying Lord gave His mother into the keeping of St. John. This would not be done if He had other living brothers. Lightfoot, who was a non-Catholic scholar, said:

“It is inconceivable that our Lord would thus have snapped asunder the most sacred ties of natural friendship.”

The most important argument, however, is found in the fact that nowhere in the New Testament is anyone else EXCEPT Jesus called the ''SON" of Mary. He is always pointed out as HER Son. Nor is SHE ever called the MOTHER of anyone else. She is always referred to as the mother of JESUS.

B. FIRST-BORN.
Matthew 1:25. The next argument by the objectors to the virginity of Mary is found in this text where Christ is called the first-born. From this, the presumption is drawn that there were other children. However, this is not the usual meaning of the word “firstborn.” A family may only have one child and that child is the first-born. In the Old Testament we find examples of this in: (a)Num. 18:15: The first-born son was to be given to God. This son was to be given BEFORE any other sons were born and even if NO OTHER sons were born.(b)Exodus 3:2: “Sanctify every first-born that openeth the womb among the children of Israel.” This was to be done BEFORE others were born and even if NO others were born.C. THE WORD “UNTIL”
In the same chapter of the same text (Matthew 1:25) where we read “and he knew her not until she brought forth her first-born son.” This word, however, does not mean that he DID know her AFTERWARDS. It refers to what has already been done and not to the future.

For example: In Genesis 8:6, 7, we read that Noah sent forth a raven which did not return UNTIL the waters dried up. As a matter of fact the raven NEVER returned, even after the waters dried up. So, too. in Psalm 109: “Sit thou at my right hand UNTIL I make thy enemies my footstool.” Now, of course, Christ will continue to sit at the right hand even after enemies are made the footstool of God. As Catholics we believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary before, during, and after the birth of Christ. After the birth of Christ she lived in the home with her Son whom she knew by revelation to be “the Son of God.” There was no place for selfish personal feelings when she was so absorbed in the love for her Son. It is like looking directly into the sun; we see nothing except the sun. So in heaven we will know God, see God and there will be no reason for turning our attention to the creatures of the world or of thinking of ourselves. This was true, likewise, of Mary, living, as she was, with the Son of God.
 
Mike Stallard:
Gal 1:19 (NASB)
*But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. *

This verse reads that James is an apostle.
There are only two apostles named James.

Matthew 10:2-4 lists the apostles and if you look, there is **James the son of Zebedee ** and James the son of Alphaeus.

Nothing about a James the son of Joseph and Mary. James in Gal 1:19 isn’t a direct brother of Jesus.

HTH,

Maria
 
Mike Stallard:
Hi!
I am an ex Protestant and I love being a Catholic. However, since converting (1989), I have been unable fully to come to terms with the Virginity of the Blessed Virgin.
My problem is entirely Biblical.
Gal 1 19
Mark 6.3
Mat 12.46f
Obviously, the birth narratives are (to me at any rate) easily believeable. These three texts, however, suggest that Jesus’ Mother had a fairly large family afterwards. So “Mary Ever Virgin” is a hard thing to say sincerely.
Help!
Hi Mike -

I’ve been a protestant my whole life (59 years) and am now in RCIA and will be confirmed Holy Saturday. The very best thing I’ve found so far to answer my questions USING THE BIBLE is this site:

kensmen.com/catholic/mary.html

I hope it will be helpful to you.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
 
Mike Stallard:
since converting (1989), I have been unable fully to come to terms with the Virginity of the Blessed Virgin.
Hi Mike,

I have a personal question for you, and I hope you won’t be upset. I’m in RCIA right now and there is something that I’ve been unable to come to terms with as well. Most of it is that I just don’t understand. I believe, but don’t get it.

So, my question to you is, what made you join the church if you didn’t agree with all the teachings?

This Monday, our RCIA class signs up for the Rite of Election happening on March 2.
I am not sure I’m going to do it. I want to, but then again, I believe I should have a better understanding before I do this.

Would you mind sharing? You can PM me if you’d prefer.

Thanks,
 
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Marquette:
Hi Mike -

I’ve been a protestant my whole life (59 years) and am now in RCIA and will be confirmed Holy Saturday. The very best thing I’ve found so far to answer my questions USING THE BIBLE is this site:

kensmen.com/catholic/mary.html

I hope it will be helpful to you.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
The Mary page is good.

Be careful of the rest. It is extreme traditionalist nonsense that will harm your faith. The page on infallibility goes so far as to leave out information for the sake of trying to prove this point.
 
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Lazerlike42:
The Mary page is good.

Be careful of the rest. It is extreme traditionalist nonsense that will harm your faith. The page on infallibility goes so far as to leave out information for the sake of trying to prove this point.
I got the Mary page from somewhere or other and didn’t even realize it was part of something else. Glad you warned me though. Thanks!!
 
The perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary was hotly defended by the Church Fathers. You can read about it in this article in the Catholic Encyclopedia: Virgin Birth of Christ. Just scroll down to: Church Fathers.
 
Take it in baby steps. None of the 4 men NAMED in scripture as brothers of Jesus can possibly be sons of Mary. So at least the named “brothers” are not brothers german but must be some other kind of kinsmen.
 
Will Pick:
Catholic and non-Catholic students of Scripture are not agreed as to who were the parents of James and Joseph and Simon and Jude. Most Catholic scholars believe that they are the cousins of the Lord, their mother being Mary, the wife of Cleophas (Clopas). They come to this conclusion by comparison with other texts, i.e., John 19:25.

We also know that in the Old Testament the word “brother” or “brethren” was not reserved for blood brothers but for other relatives also. It was used:
  1. FOR ALL RELATIVES.
Genesis 29:15: “And Laban said unto Jacob, ‘Because thou art my brother, should thou, therefore, serve me for naught’.”

We know that Jacob was the nephew of Laban.
  1. KINSMEN.
Genesis 13:8: “Abram therefore said to Lot . . . ‘Let therefore there be no quarreling between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen for we are all brethren’.”
  1. ALSO FOR NIECES.
Genesis 12:13.

So also in everyday use today we call our preacher brother and the preacher calls us brother. But we are not brothers. In our union halls we salute each other by the title “brother.” In our lodges the same is true.

In this particular text if Simon and Jude and James and Joseph were cousins, as they probably were, they could not be CALLED “cousin” for there was no word in Aramaic for cousin. If we suppose that these were blood brothers we will have to admit they were born AFTER Christ – since no one today questions the virginity of Mary PRIOR to the birth of Christ.

But in John 7:3, 4 and also in Mark 3:21 we see these “brothers” rebuking our Lord. Now it was unthinkable among Jews for a younger brother to take such a role. Still further, in the story of the crucifixion in John 19, we read that the dying Lord gave His mother into the keeping of St. John. This would not be done if He had other living brothers. Lightfoot, who was a non-Catholic scholar, said:

“It is inconceivable that our Lord would thus have snapped asunder the most sacred ties of natural friendship.”

The most important argument, however, is found in the fact that nowhere in the New Testament is anyone else EXCEPT Jesus called the ''SON" of Mary. He is always pointed out as HER Son. Nor is SHE ever called the MOTHER of anyone else. She is always referred to as the mother of JESUS.

B. FIRST-BORN.
Matthew 1:25. The next argument by the objectors to the virginity of Mary is found in this text where Christ is called the first-born. From this, the presumption is drawn that there were other children. However, this is not the usual meaning of the word “firstborn.” A family may only have one child and that child is the first-born. In the Old Testament we find examples of this in: (a)Num. 18:15: The first-born son was to be given to God. This son was to be given BEFORE any other sons were born and even if NO OTHER sons were born.(b)Exodus 3:2: “Sanctify every first-born that openeth the womb among the children of Israel.” This was to be done BEFORE others were born and even if NO others were born.C. THE WORD “UNTIL”
In the same chapter of the same text (Matthew 1:25) where we read “and he knew her not until she brought forth her first-born son.” This word, however, does not mean that he DID know her AFTERWARDS. It refers to what has already been done and not to the future.

For example: In Genesis 8:6, 7, we read that Noah sent forth a raven which did not return UNTIL the waters dried up. As a matter of fact the raven NEVER returned, even after the waters dried up. So, too. in Psalm 109: “Sit thou at my right hand UNTIL I make thy enemies my footstool.” Now, of course, Christ will continue to sit at the right hand even after enemies are made the footstool of God. As Catholics we believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary before, during, and after the birth of Christ. After the birth of Christ she lived in the home with her Son whom she knew by revelation to be “the Son of God.” There was no place for selfish personal feelings when she was so absorbed in the love for her Son. It is like looking directly into the sun; we see nothing except the sun. So in heaven we will know God, see God and there will be no reason for turning our attention to the creatures of the world or of thinking of ourselves. This was true, likewise, of Mary, living, as she was, with the Son of God.
If James was the flesh and blood brother of Jesus, then why would Jesus have left the care to Mary at the foot of the cross to John who was not a relative of Jesus? Early 1st century sources claim that James the “brother” of Jesus is either a cousin of Jesus or a step brother of Jesus from Joseph’s first marriage. Some sources claim that Joseph was a rather old man that was taking care of the Blessed Mother while he was raising Jesus. In Jewish culture, it would be almost like saying you are invisible if you were to give your mother over to the care of another man that wasn’t even part of the family (John) if you had brothers to care for her.
 
Semper Fi:
If James was the flesh and blood brother of Jesus, then why would Jesus have left the care to Mary at the foot of the cross? Early 1st century sources claim that James the “brother” of Jesus is either a cousin of Jesus or a step brother of Jesus from Joseph’s first marriage. Some sources claim that Joseph was a rather old man that was taking care of the Blessed Mother while he was raising Jesus. In Jewish culture, it would be almost like saying you are invisible if you were to give your mother over to the care of another man that wasn’t even part of the family (John) if you had brothers to care for her.
Possible solutions:

James was not there and was a believer. He could not have given her to him if he was not there. No one can disagree with that. We KNOW for sure he was not there. The Bible clearly records who was.

or

James was not there and was not a believer. How could Jesus have left his mother with an unbeliever??? Well when did he become a believer?

1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that,
* he was seen of James; then of all the apostles***

Why does Mary always travel with or is associated with these four people?

Why do they keep following her around?

How come when they are placed together in scripture they never speak of these four men’s real parents?

**Matthew 12:46-47 ** - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”

Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"

**Mark 6:2-3 ** - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

John 2:12 - “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”

Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."

The most you could possible say was, well he should have taken her to James then, and I will let YOU GUYS question the wisdom of the Lord, not me.

According to your theories, God’s Sacred Word requires mental gymnastics to come up with plausible explanations that defy their clear and intended meaning(ok I recognize the editorial nature of the last comment, dont get hung up on that 🙂

Brian
 
First of all, let me thank each one of you for your answers to my question. I have studied the Bible in some detail over my life and I am totally convinced.
That surprised me, cynic that I am.
So, well done all of you for answering me so well!

As to being a Catholic with doubts. Well, I cannot help it. I was an Anglican and Anglicans are trained to doubt. We used to question everything. At my “Catholic” Theological College a lady student asked the Methodist (!) lecturer this question:
“Was Jesus just an Egyptian magician?”
Quick as a flash, he replied: “No, Jesus was English, just like his Father.”
That’s the sort of training I received!

It works very well, actually as training because it blows away the cobwebs. However, when you get to a Parish, you are immediately faced with terrible difficulties. Someone comes to you desperate to be remarried after a divorce. What do you do? Some remarry, others don’t. Gay marriage? the same. Women priests? The same. Baptism of unbelievers? The same.
After a time, the position is intolerable.
You end up in a church on just one person.
And you get to hurt a lot of desperate people too.

So you can see that it was important for me to enter a Church which believed definite things. Well, of course, I had difficulty squeezing in!

But just like in that film (Butch Cassidy) where the two men jumped over the side of a cliff into the water, I jumped.

Since then (1989) I have been constantly surprised by the totally unexpected richness of this wonderful communion of people. That is not empty piety.

There is always a convincing explanation for even the most staggering claims. Look at this thread for an example!
 
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BrianH:
Possible solutions:

James was not there and was a believer. He could not have given her to him if he was not there. No one can disagree with that. We KNOW for sure he was not there. The Bible clearly records who was.

or

James was not there and was not a believer. How could Jesus have left his mother with an unbeliever??? Well when did he become a believer?
James, the Apostle, the so-called “brother” of Jesus an unbeliever at the time of the crucifixion? :confused: Doesn’t seem too likely to me. By the way, St Jerome, the Biblical scholar, was an adiment supporter of the Ever-Virgin status of Mary.
 
This is not an argument about whether Jesus had brothers through his mother, Mary, but rather an indication that the word “brothers” does not by any means indicate “sons of my mother.”

Jesus says to Mary Magdalene at the tomb (Jn 20:17): “go to my brothers” – the Greek word is “adelphous,” the same word as used for “son of my mother and father” – and the next verse says: Mary Magdalene went and said to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord”; and she told them that he had said these things to her.
 
“Brethren” - Get out a good exhaustive concordance and look up every single usage of the term “brother” (or “sister”) in Scripture. It will be quickly evident that “brother” in Ancient Near Eastern culture does not mean what it means to us modern Westerners.

The Bible is anything but clear and self-evident - not only in defective translations, but also in the original languages. A working familiarity with ancient Near Eastern literature and history is required to begin to approach accurate understanding of certain biblical terminologies and concepts. The early Fathers of the Church had a far better understanding of it than do you or I, which is just one more reason to listen to them in matters such as this.

“Until” - “Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death.”
Are we to infer that she bore children AFTER her death?

“Christ shall reign until all His enemies have been subjected to Him.”
Are we to infer that He then shall reign no longer?

Mary Ever-Virgin did indeed “have a fairly large family after” the birth of Jesus.
It is us.
 
I am not, have not, will not, argue anything different about the meaning of words. That is a mistake that Protestants make but I agree with you guys about the meaning. I am familiar with the dual meanings of the word. When faced with a word like “brother” that has dual meanings, the context is important. They are either brothers or cousins. This is true. Lets take a look.

First, lets look at our history though:

Obviously the most famous of the four people mentioned is James.

“*James, the Lord’s brother, succeeds to the government of the Church, in conjunction with the apostles. He has been universally called the Just, from the days of the Lord down to the present time. For many bore the name of James; but this one was holy from his mother’s womb.” * Hegesippus

We will throw in Jude as well though:

"There still survived of the kindred of the Lord the grandsons of Judas, who according to the flesh was called his brother. "
Hegesippus

the family of one of the reputed brothers of the Saviour, named Judas, as having survived until this same reign
Hegesippus

Lets look at the context:

Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
Mary wants to speak to him. The “brothers” are with her and also have something to say. No one else is mentioned. She travels with them and if anyone else is with them, they are not mentioned.

Mat 13:54-56 *And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this [man] this wisdom, and [these] mighty works?

Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these things? *

Jesus is back home. The people are astonished. They are not believers and they are talking about a family.

Hey…thats Joseph’s son.
His Mom is Mary.
His brothers are James, Joses, Simon, and Judas.
And his sisters are here.
If these are other peoples kids…they leave out that important detail. No doubt these four men do not just travel with her, like the other verses, in his hometown they are so closely associated together that no one else is mentioned…they are once again all together AND NO OTHER ADULTS.

Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

Different author here. Same four guys associated with him.

John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
His Mom is with him again and his brothers, traveling with her again. No other family mentioned. Him mother. His disciples. His brothers.

You have seen the context that shows they are brothers, where is my cousin context for these verses?
BH
 
I realy don’t know how to respond to this. It is exactly what we were taught at Theological College (Anglican) way back in the mid 70s. Believe me, our teachers (Methodist and Anglican/Catholic) really did know their Bibles in Latin, Greek and most English translations. It would be simply stupid to rubbish them.
What they never told us though was the other side.
Until I entered my question, I truly had no idea of the strength of the opposition!
I suppose it is, once again, a question of balance.
Thank you for your comment though!
 
There’s a good reasoning here bringyou.to/apologetics/a27.htm

Among NZ Maori it is quite common for cousins (close tribal relatives) to be regarded as brothers and sisters. In NZ slang they are called “cuzzie-bro”.

It is entirely likely that those referred to as Jesus’ brothers and sisters were cousins on His father Joseph’s side of the family.
 
Good argument, Brian:

“*James, the Lord’s brother, succeeds to the government of the Church, in conjunction with the apostles. He has been universally called the Just, from the days of the Lord down to the present time. For many bore the name of James; but this one was holy from his mother’s womb.” * Hegesippus

However, Hegesippus also mentions that Clopas was the brother of Joseph. At the foot of the cross,the sister of the Lord’s mother is there; her name is Mary, wife of Clopas, also identified as the mother of James and Joseph. If Hegesippus identifies James as being holy from his mother’s womb, how does one explain James as being an unbeliever until after the resurrection? James is said to be an apostle.Some might argue that he was called an apostle as Barnabas is also called by such a title. However, when Paul went to Jerusalem, he was greeted by Barnabas, and still mentions the only apostle he met beside Peter was James, the Lord’s brother. A first century document by the name of the Gospel according to the Hebrews, identifies James as being among the disciples at the last supper, and is therefore identified as being one of the twelve. Some believe this document to be the original gosple of Matthew.

Jerome, quoting from the Gospel of the Hebrews, says

And when the Lord had given the linen cloth to the servant of the priest, he went to James and appeared to him. For James had sworn that he would not eat bread from that hour in which he had drunk the cup of the Lord until he should see him risen from among them that sleep. And shortly thereafter the Lord said: Bring a table and bread! And immediately it is added: he took bread, blessed it and brake it and gave to James the Just and said to him: My brother, eat thy bread, for the Son of man is risen from among them that sleep.(9)

Notice (besides the point) the shroud is said to be given to the high priest…to be used as a relic, in my opinion.

Hegesippus has James the Righteous dying at the age of 80. In addition, he comments that Eusebius marks the date as 62 AD. This places James’ birth at 18 BC, well before the birth of Christ.
Therefore, an hypothesis could be that Jesus and Mary lived with Clopas, Joseph’s brother along with Clopas’ sons and daughters after Joseph died.

We will throw in Jude as well though:

"There still survived of the kindred of the Lord the grandsons of Judas, who according to the flesh was called his brother. "
Hegesippus

who according to the flesh was “called” Jesus brother.

the family of one of the reputed brothers of the Saviour, named Judas, as having survived until this same reign
Hegesippus

Notice the word “reputed”.

Lets look at the context:

Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
Mary wants to speak to him. The “brothers” are with her and also have something to say. No one else is mentioned. She travels with them and if anyone else is with them, they are not mentioned.

Mat 13:54-56 *And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this [man] this wisdom, and [these] mighty works?

Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these things? *

…cut for brevity
Different author here. Same four guys associated with him.

Good point. However, let us take another approach; If Mary had four sons besides Jesus and at least two daughters, it seems odd that they are not identified at all when Jesus is said to go to Jerusalem for the passover at twelve years of age, as he went every year with his “mother and father”. Notice here, when Jesus is not with his parents, they, at first, are not concerned as they believe him to be travelling with some other “relatives”.

John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
His Mom is with him again and his brothers, traveling with her again. No other family mentioned. Him mother. His disciples. His brothers.

You have seen the context that shows they are brothers, where is my cousin context for these verses?
BH

Since Joseph is out of the picture, it seems reasonable to believe that Jesus and Mary lived with Joseph’s brother’s familly.
The perpetual virginity of Mary centers on her words to the angel Gabriel " how can this be since I know not man"?

Andre
 
Thank you for a scholarly and very full answer to my original question.
Am I right in thinking that James in Hebrew is Jacob? Are you sure that you aren’t muddling up an awful lot of people under one very common name?
 
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