The "What if we just said 'wait'" campaign

[NPC]

Hi all,

Just wondering if you have heard of this campaign which has been started by a Seattle-based priest. Basically this priest, Fr Michael Ryan, believes that the new translation of the Roman Missal into English is not ready. Furthermore, he believes the new translation to be a sign of the “systematic dismantling of the great vision of [Vatican II’s] decree”.

Full article HERE from The Tablet.

Apparently his campaign has gotten 10,000 signatures from 43 countries. As far as I’m concerned - and this view was expressed by a blogger from The Telegraph newspaper - we’ve waited long enough for a text which is faithful to the Latin. Mr Thompson’s blog HERE - he has a counter petition to that of Fr Ryan!

Do you think that Fr Ryan and the “What if we just said ‘wait’” supporters have genuine concerns? I personally can’t see what these could be…Is this just another agenda of liberal and dissenting groups within the Church? I mean, if Fr Ryan was so concerned with being true to the decrees of Vatican II, surely he’d be celebrating the O.F. Holy Mass in Latin and ad orientem as the Council intended?

 

[malphono]

Do you think that Fr Ryan and the “What if we just said ‘wait’” supporters have genuine concerns? I personally can’t see what these could be…Is this just another agenda of liberal and dissenting groups within the Church? I mean, if Fr Ryan was so concerned with being true to the decrees of Vatican II, surely he’d be celebrating the O.F. Holy Mass in Latin and ad orientem as the Council intended?

Oh yeah, it sounds suspiciously like another of their agendas. It seems to me this person (or those people) is (are) consumed with the dreaded “spirit of Vaitcan II” and as such would probably run screaming at the prospect of Latin or (even worse) ad orientem.

 

[reggieM]

I mean, if Fr Ryan was so concerned with being true to the decrees of Vatican II, surely he’d be celebrating the O.F. Holy Mass in Latin and ad orientem as the Council intended?

 

[JimG]

The new English translation is simply an accurate translation of the current Latin. The way some elderly liturgical liberals are getting worked up, you’d think it was a repudiation of Vatican II. It isn’t.

 

[Rolltide]

Why not sign the opposing petition? Be sure to use a REAL name… people have been forging the other petition.
**
“We’ve Waited Long Enough!”**
ipetitions.com/petition/enoughwaiting/

Father Z talks about the petition here:
wdtprs.com/blog/2010/01/america-magazine-article-about-the-dissident-petition-against-the-new-translation/

 

[Onegin]

The new English translation is simply an accurate translation of the current Latin. The way some elderly liturgical liberals are getting worked up, you’d think it was a repudiation of Vatican II. It isn’t.

Because they’re worried this is a step towards going back to the use of Latin, which is precisely what they worked so hard to get away from.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\Just wondering if you have heard of this campaign which has been started by a Seattle-based priest. Basically this priest, Fr Michael Ryan, believes that the new translation of the Roman Missal into English is not ready. Furthermore, he believes the new translation to be a sign of the “systematic dismantling of the great vision of [Vatican II’s] decree”.\

This matter is totally out of his hands, as all the English-speaking bishops (to my knowlege) have approved the new English mass texts, which have gone on to Rome for final approval.

 

[NPC]

This matter is totally out of his hands, as all the English-speaking bishops (to my knowlege) have approved the new English mass texts, which have gone on to Rome for final approval.

Yes, I know it’s out of his hands… I’ve no doubt that the new translation - which as you said, has been approved by the bishops - will come into effect as planned, protest or no protest. I am delighted that we are finally getting more accurate translations from the Latin, even if it is forty years late!

I just can’t see what Fr Ryan thinks the difficulties are - the truth is that we HAVE waited long enough already & when we finally get more faithful translations of the Latin, he wants us to wait even more??? It seems clear that he must have some other motive for launching his protest, something far deeper than a translation of the missal…

 

[bpbasilphx]

Yes, I know it’s out of his hands… I’ve no doubt that the new translation - which as you said, has been approved by the bishops - will come into effect as planned, protest or no protest. I am delighted that we are finally getting more accurate translations from the Latin, even if it is forty years late!

I know from my own experience in translating liturgical texts that this is an art, and not a science.

The further away you get from the original language in distance and culture, the more difficult it becomes.

English, Latin, and Greek are at least Indo-European langauges, with a howsoever tenuously connected cultural heritage.

But there’s a problem with rendering “Lord, have mercy” (a frequent response in Byzantine texts) or “and with your spirit” in Japanese.

Since the closest you can get to “Lord, have mercy” in Japanese is “Don’t hurt me too much when you cut off my head,” it’s left in the Slavonic “Hospodi pomilui”–with an r replacing the l.

And since the closest word for “spirit” means spook or phantasm, the Japanese bishops are asking to retain “and also with you.”

 

[JimG]

I know from my own experience in translating liturgical texts that this is an art, and not a science.

The further away you get from the original language in distance and culture, the more difficult it becomes.

English, Latin, and Greek are at least Indo-European langauges, with a howsoever tenuously connected cultural heritage.

But there’s a problem with rendering “Lord, have mercy” (a frequent response in Byzantine texts) or “and with your spirit” in Japanese.

Since the closest you can get to “Lord, have mercy” in Japanese is “Don’t hurt me too much when you cut off my head,” it’s left in the Slavonic “Hospodi pomilui”–with an r replacing the l.

And since the closest word for “spirit” means spook or phantasm, the Japanese bishops are asking to retain “and also with you.”

Might be easier just to retain the “et cum spiritu tuo.”

 

[NPC]

Might be easier just to retain the “et cum spiritu tuo.”

Yes, Latin seems to be the best solution in my opinion - indeed I think it should be encouraged across the board, whether there are translation difficulties or not

 

[Canto]

Is 40 years not long enough?

Everyone else has a literal transaltion of the Latin, why not English speakers, why should we be an exception.

With a dynamic transaltion one forces their interpretation on people. With a literal translation people can take their own meaning.

“systematic dismantling of the great vision of [Vatican II’s] decree”.

Let’s see. Sacrosanctum Concilum said you can’t change the texts yet the English text makes holy Church simply Church, deletes a chunck of the Gloria and I could go on and on.

If we don’t want to dismantle the great vision then maybe we should chant our parts of the Mass in Latin. The Council said chant should be given pride of place, that Latin should be preserved and that we should be able to chant or at least say our parts in Latin.

Somone here once positied that those who get narky at some trads who cricticise the Church or prefer the EF Mass may find themselves in a similar position

When the uninformed heard a few examples (“and with your spirit”; “consubstantial with the Father”; “oblation of our service”; “precious chalice”), the reaction was somewhere between disbelief and indignation.

Maybe they should do a quick google search or get a dictionary. It doesn’t help to educate one’s self on the faith you know

it seems ludicrous to push ahead with an agenda that will seem at best trivial and at worst hopelessly out of touch.

A theologically and doctrinally accurate translation of THE MASS is trivial??? If we had’ve got it right in the first place we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

And there’s more: the chilly reception the people of South Africa have already given the new translations.

Cardinal Pell noted that most Catholics in SA don’t attend Mass in English. There was not proper cathechesis there either.

weak, inconsistent translations that have resulted.

According to whom?

until we have been consulted in an adult manner that honours our intelligence and our baptismal birthright?

Like we were consulted with the current inaccurate mess

 

[Chatter163]

I fully support the new translations, and have heard people on this forum predict that they will be implemented at the end of 2010, when Advent begins the new Church year. I do not expect that this will happen because I have heard very little about musical compositions being arranged for the new translations.

While I have a definite preference for the original Latin settings, I recognize the need for vernacular settings. I expect that there will be opposition from diocesan and parochial music sectors, claiming that they have not had time to prepare new settings amd teach these to the people. Missalette and music publishers will naturally lobby on their behalf, as well, and I predict that Rome will end up having to push back the mandated dates a bit. I hope that I am wring.

 

[ljubim]

Because they’re worried this is a step towards going back to the use of Latin, which is precisely what they worked so hard to get away from.

:clapping:
I can’t wait for a better translation! The current one is absolutely awful. Just read an old Latin missal and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

I’m most excited about using the old Confiteor. I don’t even know why, maybe it’s the stronger acknowledgement of the saints, or of a greater sense of accountability?

I also like “And with your spirit.” Perhaps the awareness of the fallibility of translations will inspire people to give the Tridentine Rite a shot

 

[NPC]

While I have a definite preference for the original Latin settings, I recognize the need for vernacular settings. I expect that there will be opposition from diocesan and parochial music sectors, claiming that they have not had time to prepare new settings amd teach these to the people. Missalette and music publishers will naturally lobby on their behalf, as well, and I predict that Rome will end up having to push back the mandated dates a bit.

I’ve no doubt but that some musical directors will be shouting that they haven’t enough time to learn new settings, or that there aren’t enough new settings, &c. We should be shouting back and encouraging choirs to learn some Latin settings! Latin is the perfect solution - even if it is only a short term solution for some choirs. There are some very easy chant Masses; I think more people than we realise are familiar with Missa de Angelis - chances are that if anyone learned any bit of chant at school, it was some or all of it. The new translations, as well as Pope Benedict’s encouraging of the Extraordinary Form Holy Mass, mean that there has never been a better time for Church communities to delve into our rich and vast Latin musical heritage!