Theologian "Can't see the forest because of the trees."

[Pax]

(1 Peter 2:9-10) “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a consecrated nation, a people set apart to sing the praises of God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people at all and now you are the People of God; once you were outside the mercy and now you have been given mercy.”

If you will read all of (Hebrews 10) it should help you understand.

(Hebrews 10:19-22) “In other words, brothers, through the blood of Jesus we have the right to enter the sanctuary, (In the OT only the priest could enter the sanctuary. Now, because we are all priest we can all enter) a living opening through the curtain, that is to say, his body. And we have

Robert,

You cannot use these verses to support your contention that you have the power to consecrate the bread and wine and thus transubstantiate them to the body and blood of Jesus. You are grossly mistaken in your contention and you are attempting to use these scriptures to mean something other than what the author intended. The passages you cite refer to the curtain being lifted so that man can enter heaven. All of the OT sacrifices were only prefigurements of Jesus sacrifice. The OT sacrifices did not justify man before God and allow men to enter heaven. Only the eternal and perfect sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient to accomplish the expiation, propitiation, and atonement for sin.

The verses you quoted do not address the issue of who can consecrate the Eucharist. You are grasping at straws to support your own unique theory that no one else believes. Catholics believe in the real presence and believe that the consecration by an ordained priest is required. Lutherans and Anglicans believe likewise as do Eastern and Russian orthodox. Everyone else believes that the Eucharist is only symbolic and no true consecration takes place in their churches.

You have now come along and created your own heresy. You contend that you can consecrate the Eucharist and that any faith and Spirit filled Christian can do likewise. You have no basis for this claim and you cannot prove it from scripture or history. Why do you believe something that is so utterly outrageous and that Christians have ever believed?

 

[edward_george]

I think the biggest question here, and I say this with all due respect Mr. Heibel, is this:

If Jesus is speaking to you as you say, then why do you even need a Bible? Shouldn’t the voice of Jesus be enough for you? It seems that by consulting the Bible as frequently as you do, you are showing a leaning toward the Catholic Church’s teaching authority–which **history **shows us defined the canon of Scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Councils of Hippo and Carthage in the 400s and Trent much later infallibly stated what books belong in the Bible, and it is due to these pronouncements that we have the Bible we do today–sans the Deuterocanonicals, for our separated brethren.

May the Holy Spirit guide you to truth.

-ACEGC

 

[Pax]

Robert Heibel:

Don’t you think it is significant that the Holy Spirit didn’t see those documents as important enough to be included in the Word of God (Bible)?
Robert

Robert,

The Catholic Church assembled the canon of scripture. The Catholic canon of scripture with all seventy three books of the bible was confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, Carthage, and Rome and with the Declaration of Pope Damasus in the late 4th century(around 397 AD). The Canon of scripture was once again confirmed at the Council of Florence and then at the Council of Trent. Please be advised that the Catholic Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit decided what writings were inspired scriptures and those that were not.

If the Church wanted to play games and make up doctrines then the Church was in a position to incorporate other writings into the bible for that purpose. Obviously, this is not something that the Church would do under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, the Church didn’t need to do this for the sake of Christian doctrines. Please be advised that at the same time the Church was deciding what constituted the Christian bible, she was offering the sacrifice of the mass as she had always done. This was offered with the priest and bishops as the celebrants. These are the only people that have received ordination through the laying on of hands by successors of the apostles. Lay people never presided at mass and never will. Lay people cannot consecrate the bread and wine and thus transubstantiate them into the body and blood of Christ. Lay people never have had that power and they never will.

 

[FCEGM]

This discussion brought to mind St. Teresa of Jesus and her lack of presumption and her profound humility. She submits both her understanding of the spiritual life and what has been revealed to her to the authority of the Church. She did not assume because of her intimacy with Christ that she alone could judge the truth of her extraordinary experiences and her insights. She never “disconnects”, so to speak, Christ from His Mystical Body and the apostolic authority held within that Body.

 

[Strider]

Robert Heibel:

Just because you think some thirty thousand people have heard Jesus wrong you are not going to let Him talk to you. Open up your heart and let Jesus talk to you.
Robert

Robert,
I cannot read your heart and you seem sincere, even if sincerely wrong. You took my post quite wrong.
As has been explained to you with great patience and love, we Catholics pray to, listen to and meditate on Jesus, many almost continuously.
My point, which you completely misunderstood, is that without the gifts that Jesus gave to the apostles, and that they handed down by the laying on of hands to their successors to this day, no one can read Scripture and interpret it properly. We need a human guide who has been given the gift of the Holy Spirit in a special way (binding and loosing).
As to your oft-repeated challenge for us to quote a pasage to you that says we need an ordained priest in order to consecrate the host, we both know it’s not there. Not in so many words. Where in the Bible is the word Trinity? It’s not. Does that mean there is no Trinity? Of course not.
But St. Peter warns us about self-interpretation of Scripture in 2 Peter 1:20,21.
Yes, we need an ordained priest to consecrate the bread and wine into the body and blood of our Lord. Only the successors of those at the Last Supper have that gift. We thank God for them.
I will still pray for you. And I’ll give you this; at least you’re persistent.

 

[Pax]

Robert,

You have used a couple of quotes from the NT to indicate that we as Christians are a priestly people. I had also mentioned this in a much earlier post and had indicated that this does not abolish the ministerial ordained priesthood.

I think the following will help you appreciate this even better. The OT covenants were a prefiguring of the New Covenant and we are told in the NT that the New Covenant is “better” than the old covenants because Jesus is our savior and High Priest. It is crucial to keep in mind that the old covenants prefigure the better promise of the New Covenant.

The declaration that we as Christians are a priestly people is prefigured in Israel. In Exodus 19:4-8 it says: “You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now therefore, if you will obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my own possession among all peoples; for all the earth is mine, and **you shall be to me a kingdom of priests ** and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.” So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord had commanded him. And all the people answered together and said, "All that the Lord has spoken we will do."

Please notice that Israel was also made a priestly people. This, however, is not all. In verses 22-24 God speaks to Moses about his ministerial priests. These verses read as follows: “And also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves, lest the Lord break out upon them.” And Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up to Mount Sinai; for thou thyself didst charge us, saying, ‘Set bounds about the mountain, and consecrate it.’” And the Lord said to him, “Go down, and come up bringing Aaron with you; but do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the Lord, lest he break out against them.”

We see this distinction of the ministerial priesthood even more clearly in Exodus 28:1-4 which says: “THEN BRING near to you Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the people of Israel, to serve me as priests–Aaron and Aaron’s sons, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar. And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. And you shall speak to all who have ability, whom I have endowed with an able mind, that they make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him for my priesthood. These are the garments which they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a coat of checker work, a turban, and a girdle; they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons to serve me as priests.”

It is quite clear from scripture that God made Israel in the OT a priestly people and Christians in the NT a priestly people. In both covenants the ministerial priesthood exists within the priestly population at large. The ministerial priesthood is necessary in both covenants.

I hope this helps.

 

[Trick]

Robert Heibel:

Don’t you think it is significant that the Holy Spirit didn’t see those documents as important enough to be included in the Word of God (Bible)?
Robert

No

Trick

 

[Trick]

Robert Heibel:

Just because you think some thirty thousand people have heard Jesus wrong you are not going to let Him talk to you. Open up your heart and let Jesus talk to you.
Robert

Strange.

Trick